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 July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!

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Rob_In_MO

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:27 pm

Alright Commander, I'll help start this off.

The P-51 Mustang.

Why?

The P-51 Mustang is the plane that went all the way. As Allied armies fought their way deep into occupied Europe, it was the P-51 Mustang which wrested control of the skies from the Luftwaffe. More than just a ferocious dogfighter, the P-51 Mustang was one of the fastest piston-engined fighters and could fly higher and go further than any other single-engine combat aircraft of the war. The P-51 Mustang also claimed the most Allied kills - with at least 281 pilots earning the “Aces” (5 kills) Distinction in a Mustang. IMHO - it was the greatest fighter of the war.


Last edited by Rob_In_MO on Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kaiser83

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:40 pm

Yep...the Mustang has the stats, but the Warhawk has the shark mouth so take that Rob. Laughing

SHARK MOUTH cheers cheers cheers
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MisterE
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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:44 pm

Well, since the pink P-40 isn't in the running, I'm going to vote for the P-51. It's just a badass plane. Period. I think Sparky knows that too. He can paint it however he wants, because nobody's gonna mess with him. Cool
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kaiser83

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:54 pm

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Rob_In_MO

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:58 pm

kaiser83 wrote:
Yep...the Mustang has the stats, but the Warhawk has the shark mouth so take that Rob. Laughing

SHARK MOUTH cheers cheers cheers

True - the Shark Mouth is way cool. But if you can't catch the tail of an Axis fighter, those teeth do you no good - nothing to chomp on. Cool
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George Kaplan

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:18 pm

Ok, the P-40 looked cool, but was bordering on obsolete at the beginning of the war. Sorry, guys, them's the facts. It's a close race between the other two.
The P-38 Lightning was a great aircraft. The German's called it the "split-tailed devil". Counter-rotating props eliminated rolling torque, and the heavy armament on the center line increased it's accuracy. It was a bit too much of a technological stretch, though. They hadn't quite figured out the aerodynamics on the tailplane. Placed as it was, level with the wing and body, it would lose pitch control at high speeds. This made it dangerous in a steep dive. A skilled pilot could cut throttle and add flaps to pull out. The unskilled would meet the only 100% effective anti-aircraft system. (the ground) Also, fears of the enemy getting a hold of the new superchargers that gave it it's great engine performance led to them being removed from most planes flying over Europe. Pilots called this version the "Castrated Lighting".
The P-51 Mustang, on the other hand, was pure and simple American ingenuity. Nothing fancy; just take something we already know how to build and make the best version of it we can, then mass produce the hell out of it. Nothing personal against the other two, but my vote goes to the Mustang, the "Cadillac of the Sky".



And yes, BTW, that's Batman! Very Happy


Last edited by George Kaplan on Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DrT999

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:23 pm

I'll go for the multi-purpose P-38, could do a little bit of nearly everything fairly well and kept going! (Of course, if it was open nomination, I would have said Spitfire, good Anglophile that I am) Very Happy
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George Kaplan

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:29 pm

DrT999 wrote:
(Of course, if it was open nomination, I would have said Spitfire, good Anglophile that I am) Very Happy

A tip of the bowler to you and your Spitfire, good sir.
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Rob_In_MO

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:31 pm

George Kaplan wrote:
It was a bit too much of a technological stretch, though.

If this vote were based merely upon WW2 aircraft technological advancements, then the winner would've been the ME-262. Jet engine technology several years ahead of what the US and the British were working on.


Last edited by Rob_In_MO on Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kaiser83

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:33 pm

I think we are all eliminated for suggesting other aircraft Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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George Kaplan

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:45 pm

kaiser83 wrote:
I think we are all eliminated for suggesting other aircraft Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

Especially enemy aircraft! Any of you aviation buffs want to take a stab at identifying this one? (another of our local treasures)
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kaiser83

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:01 pm

It looks like something out of a James Bond film....Roger Moore era Bond
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SPUD 15

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:15 pm

The best of the group of course is the P-51 but it never would of been built if it was not for the fact that Curtiss aircraft had a huge order for p-40s that it could not fill and the Govnt. at that time asked North American to tool up to manufacture some P-40s which was common during WWII. The engineers from North American designed the P-51 on the train fron CAL. to Washington and told the procurment office that they could start production just as quick for the p-40, or the far superior P-51. Of course North American got the contract which in turn made an overage of p-40s. That is how Gen Chennault Got the P-40s to China making then forever known as the
FLYING TIGERS. That is why my pick would be the P-40 as the P-51 would of never been built if it was not for the P-40.

THE p-51 WITH THE RR ENGINE WAS THE FAR SUPERIOR A/C OF THE GROUP


SORRY FOR THE LITTLE HISTORY LESSON mike


Last edited by SPUD 15 on Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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George Kaplan

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:23 pm

SPUD 15 wrote:
SORRY FOR THE LITTLE HISTORY LESSON mike

Actually, sir, that was very interesting. I heard a story somewhere that the P-51 plans were drawn on a napkin. Perhaps there's a seed of truth to that tall tale.
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i.keenum

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:25 pm

Warhawk , just an iconic american image to me.
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gravel

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:44 pm

The P51. It looks so airplaney.
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DrT999

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:57 pm

gravel wrote:
It looks so airplaney.

What more could anyone possibly ask for? cheers
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kaiser83

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:58 pm

gravel wrote:
The P51. It looks so airplaney.

BH I nominate Gravels' response as one in the running of the best. Wait can we nominate..crap I think I am adding more rules in here now lol.
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Blackhorse
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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:07 pm

No - just for asking quetions. And even though that German fighter WAS the first jet in combat flight and could go faster, by far, than any other plane in the sky at the time...the range SUCKED. It had a mission time so short it couldn't really fly escort. I guess it just took off from a field to meet the Allied forces and had like two of three passes in it before it ran out of fuel. But those figures are just from recollection, not actual research. I just remember seeing a Military Channel show on 'the 10 best' or something and that was the gist of what I remember.

Rob can likely fill us in on the real poop and scare it out of all the pilots. lol


OH! And by the way...paint is where you find it.

















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kaiser83

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:12 pm

Blackhorse wrote:
OH! And by the way...paint is where you find it.

















He puts up an old German looking bike and side car when he could put up an American chopper with the same paint scheme.....disappointment. Evil or Very Mad
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George Kaplan

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:19 pm

kaiser83 wrote:
He puts up an old German looking bike and side car when he could put up an American chopper with the same paint scheme.....disappointment. Evil or Very Mad

So let's see one, Kaiser!
(I was gonna point out that Ural's are Russian-made, but I'm pretty sure they copied BMW designs, so yeah, still German-looking.)
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kaiser83

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:29 pm

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Rob_In_MO

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:09 pm

Blackhorse wrote:
And even though that German fighter WAS the first jet in combat flight and could go faster, by far, than any other plane in the sky at the time...the range SUCKED. It had a mission time so short it couldn't really fly escort. I guess it just took off from a field to meet the Allied forces and had like two of three passes in it before it ran out of fuel. But those figures are just from recollection, not actual research. I just remember seeing a Military Channel show on 'the 10 best' or something and that was the gist of what I remember.

Rob can likely fill us in on the real poop and scare it out of all the pilots.






A little history on the ME-262. I didn't write this, but felt that it was fitting for posting here per Commander BH's request.



You can imagine what the allies must have thought when the Me262 first appeared in the skies. Although it had a terribly slow takeoff run, once it got into the air, the "Sturmvogel" (German for Stormbird) was the fastest plane in the sky. At more than 530 MPH it was almost 100 MPH faster than anything the allies had.

Plans for the new jet were drawn up in 1939. The first flight was made on July 18th, 1942 and it first saw action in 1944. When it was first discussed, Hitler had ordered the planes to be built as ground attack bombers - a plane he could use to win the war. The designers instead turned them into defensive interceptor fighters. Hitler was furious, but by then it was too late.

Initially known as "Projeckt P.1065, the plane had a wingspan of 41 feet, a length of 34 feet 9 inches and a maximum speed of 541 MPH. The range was a limited 652 miles, but it was enough to reek havoc on allied bombers. The standard attack started high above and behind the bomber. The Jet would then dive down below the altitude of the bomber (picking up additional speed) then climb back up and open fire from behind.

The jet definitely had its problems: Hitting an allied bomber at high speed was difficult, but slowing down enough to get a good shot made you a sitting duck. Another shortcoming was that when it went into a dive, you couldn't exceed mach .86. The down trim would lock the plane into a dive that it couldn't pull out of.

The acceleration on takeoff was so slow that the jets were extremely vulnerable to enemy attacks during takeoff or landings (or while on the ground). Although more than 1400 Me262's were built, few of them actually saw action. Fuel was scarce and there were a limited number of pilots qualified to fly the "new" jet planes.

The engines were not very reliable (engine lifetime was 20-25 hours) and because the engines were mounted close to the ground, the planes were limited to concrete runways (the engines would set asphalt runways on fire...) When they finally did get airborne, they were armed with four 30mm MK-108 cannons, two 550 pound bombs and 24 2.2 inch rockets. The rockets were the primary weapon, devastatingly effective to bomber formations.

Although there were more than 1400 of the jets built - there were never more than 200 of them operational at any point in time. Fuel was scarce and very few pilots were able to transition to the jets very quickly. The jets were barely able to fly on 2 engines and flame outs were common occurances. The loss of an engine usually meant the loss of the plane and to top it off... no ejection seat - the planes were designed to be built quickly and inexpensively.

While it may not have been the best jet plane in the world, it was the first and from there, there was no way to go but up...
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Mozjo33

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:04 pm

Once more into the brink...that's me signing in BH.

My vote is for the P-40




Simple reason...it's what John Wayne flew in Flying Tigers!!

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EC Outlaw

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PostSubject: Re: July Bombing...a Red, White and Blue Extravaganza!   Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:35 pm

I'm casting a vote for the P-38. In my opinion, it was the most balanced of the prop-driven warbirds of the Second World War. Like most aircraft of the era, it had design bugs which had to be worked out in the early stages of production, but ended up as one of the most effective aircraft of it's era.

The original production did not have counter-rotating propellers, which caused many of the original pilots to condemn the aircraft as a "widow-maker" at take-off and landing speeds. But the supercharged engines did give it excellent high-altitude performance. The pentagon, however, would not allow the superchargers to be installed on the aircraft ordered by the British, which made that version a poor performer. After the U.S. entered the war, the supercharged model was allowed in the European theater, and performed very well. It was also considered the best photo-reconn aircraft in the theater.

Once the design was converted to counter-rotating propellers, the aircraft became much more stable at low speeds, and with the tricycle landing gear it provided a better sight line for take-off and landing. As mentioned by another brother, the center mounted armament is easier to line up, and pilots did not have to decide at what distance they wanted the plane's machine guns to converge at, to obtain maximum damage on the opponent.

It was a natural long-range aircraft, not requiring additional bladder tanks (internal to the fuselage) as the P-51 did.

We should also remember that the P-51 was a 'dud' as originally built. With the Allison engine, as originally equipped when shipped to the British, the 'Apache', as it was called, could not achieve sufficient performance to be an interceptor/fighter. It was relegated by the Brits to the ground attack role. It did not have a bubble canopy, and rearward visibility was poor. Only when the Brits married the 'Apache' frame to the Rolls-Royce Merlin V-12 engine, with the British version of the supercharger, did the P-51 become a great aircraft.

Both aircraft performed magnificently in the Second World War, and early in the Korean War. Both remained in service in foreign airforces for many years after their retirement from service in U.S. service.

But my vote goes to the P-38 Lightning - The plane that got Yamamoto!
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