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 What are/will be the "classics" of the future?

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monbla256

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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:29 pm

geordiebooker wrote:
Basically, buy what APPEALS to you, what you can AFFORD and stop worrying about the "romance" aspect of the pipe. Remember, we are basically taking a piece of wood that someone has shaped, putting a dried weed in it, lighting it on fire and injesting the smoke from the weed into our bodies. It's called Smoking Twisted Evil Twisted Evil [/quote]

I never actually asked what to spend my cash on ....just looking for other perspectives....I can't be the only pipe smoker in my thirties wondering about the older generations knowledgeable take on this ......Can I ????[/quote]

Yes you can . That goes without saying, but this whole thing keeps going round and round and there's no real defining answer ( IMHO) Twisted Evil As for today's smoking world, due to the Web, a smoker has so much MORE available to enjoy in this habit than what was in the past. Most of us were restricted to the 'bacs and pipes available in local drugstores and tobacco shops and what we learned from a few known to us smokers. Much of this info was not all that accurate and has become the "legends" we still knock around. I try to live in the present in my life and find the world of pipe smoking I'm in NOW to be a very nice one compared to "what it was". This same thing seems to be happening in many fields of interest these days so I guess that's what it is Twisted Evil
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Kashmir

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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:48 pm

Thanks Hawker. But the rounding is from decades of buffing prior to my acquisition. Personally I like the old estates, and sometimes their warts are part of their charm. Oh, by the way - getting back to the thread - I agree with everything stated by monbla. Bit O' wisdom there.
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:36 pm

Rad Davis already won this thread, and Yak's getting a good deal, it seems. Laughing
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Harlock999

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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:01 pm

I just have to say that that Comoys pic, above, has to be one of the gorgeous pipe pics I've ever seen. Love it!


Last edited by Harlock999 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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riff raff

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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:38 pm

sisyphus wrote:
Because most of the interesting marques became Cadogan around that year, and the pipes that followed did not have anywhere near the quality of pipes previously bearing those names. If you want to hate someone in pipe smoking, hate Cadogan. Comoy's, Loewe, Orlik, GBD, BBB, and Sasieni all went to hell under their stewardship.

Yep, I agree completely. I only have one Cadogan era (GBD) that smokes decently and it was made so early in the merger that it still has a brass rondell.

On the answer to your question, Rad Davis first popped into my head. But, he makes a lot of pipes, will that hurt resale in 20 years? Compared to, say a Brian Ruthenberg, whose production is not so prolific?
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Kashmir

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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:38 pm

Thanks again, Harlock!
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Rad Davis

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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:34 pm

riff raff wrote:


On the answer to your question, Rad Davis first popped into my head. But, he makes a lot of pipes, will that hurt resale in 20 years? Compared to, say a Brian Ruthenberg, whose production is not so prolific?

I would say this about that: If you're buying pipes as an investment, you are making a bad investment. Smile If you're looking for a good value for the price paid, then both Brian and I offer that.

I don't know what your definition of "a lot of pipes" is, but compared to the "classic brands" of yesteryear, I make very, very few pipes. And Brian probably approaches zero. Laughing

Rad
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Kashmir

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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:42 pm

Hey Rad - Good to see you posting on this forum! I have yet to aquire one of your pipes, but its high on my to do list. I'll also agree to say that buying pipes is not a wise investment. I've rarely recouped what I put into a pipe when I sell one. Personally I buy pipes to smoke, and the future be damned regarding their resale value. I've got overtime & my TIAA CREF accounts for that. Or what little is left in them. LOL.
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sisyphus

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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:43 pm

geordiebooker wrote:

My question is this:

What newly introduced brands do you think will become the classics of the future....I'm not talking arstisan made pipes here, I mean full on mass produced pipes that are value for money, are well made and above all smoke well.

I would be interested to hear your comments on this.
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Kashmir

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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:46 pm

Well sisyphus, since you've kindly reminded us of what this thread is about, I'll say its a no brainer. Stanwell, of course.


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sisyphus

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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:49 pm

yeah I would say that about the Danish Stanwells, but the Italian Stanwells I've owned and had in my hands were good smokers and nice pipes for the money, but I don't think anyone will be collecting them in 30 years.

Maybe some of the Italian midgrades will become a thing. Radice, Il Ceppo, Amorelli. All three make a reasonably priced pipe, can't be called artisan, and might have a following down the road. Not mass produced though.
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riff raff

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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:30 pm

Rad Davis wrote:
riff raff wrote:


On the answer to your question, Rad Davis first popped into my head. But, he makes a lot of pipes, will that hurt resale in 20 years? Compared to, say a Brian Ruthenberg, whose production is not so prolific?

I would say this about that: If you're buying pipes as an investment, you are making a bad investment. Smile If you're looking for a good value for the price paid, then both Brian and I offer that.

I don't know what your definition of "a lot of pipes" is, but compared to the "classic brands" of yesteryear, I make very, very few pipes. And Brian probably approaches zero. Laughing

Rad

I agree on all of those accounts! (and hope Brians health continues to improve). "Prolific" was a poor choice or words, and no disrespect was intended! I watched an S. Bang auction end last night and in conversation with my wife she asked what the pipe sold for new. I told her probably $300 or so, perhaps less. (ended at $1,200). She asked why I didnt buy some pipes like that and store them.... I told her that the only thing missing from that plan was the crystal ball.
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Rad Davis

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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:30 pm

riff raff wrote:


I agree on all of those accounts! (and hope Brians health continues to improve). "Prolific" was a poor choice or words, and no disrespect was intended! I watched an S. Bang auction end last night and in conversation with my wife she asked what the pipe sold for new. I told her probably $300 or so, perhaps less. (ended at $1,200). She asked why I didnt buy some pipes like that and store them.... I told her that the only thing missing from that plan was the crystal ball.

To paraphrase Will Rogers: It's easy to make money investing in pipes. Buy a pipe, and when it increases in value, sell it for a profit. If it doesn't increase in value, don't buy it. Laughing

Rad
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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:22 am

THE factor (singular) that separates a master of any craft from a journeyman who has any business pursuing that craft as an occupation is speed / efficiency. Not the result of their efforts.

Anybody with ability & proper training can turn out a nice job in a week's time. But he can't sell it for enough to make a living. Therein lies the rub.

The slow production of somebody who has already lapped the field several times and is now absorbed in where his muse leads him only increases people's interest in what he's doing. But to get to that place, he cranked out a lot of work over many years that was, at the same time, strikingly superior to what was around him. And with a touch of originality that no one could copy.

Volume has to be considered in that context to be meaningful.

What a Face
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Puff Daddy
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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:59 am

So you're saying master craftsman equals quantity, not quality? I've been wrong about Walmart all these years..... Mad

I dunno, but I kinda think master craftsman means someone who can create something a helluva lot better than most. I've seen people gawk at pretty things in the shop window because they were beautiful, but I've yet to see anyone gawk at something and say"He did that so quickly!"

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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:01 am

Rolling Eyes

What a Face
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Puff Daddy
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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:30 am

Yak wrote:
Rolling Eyes

What a Face

Laughing

I understand what you're saying about having to be able to do something quick enough to make a living, but that defines journeyman, not master, imho. Master craftsman means able to create the best, not "good enough but can make plenty of them". I see the master craftsman as the guy who can slow down a little, turn out the finest of his work, and people will pay top dollar for it because he is turning out the best work. Better than the average journeyman who is just out there making an honest living.

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Rad Davis

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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:53 am

Puff Daddy wrote:


I understand what you're saying about having to be able to do something quick enough to make a living, but that defines journeyman, not master, imho. Master craftsman means able to create the best, not "good enough but can make plenty of them". I see the master craftsman as the guy who can slow down a little, turn out the finest of his work, and people will pay top dollar for it because he is turning out the best work. Better than the average journeyman who is just out there making an honest living.

Yak wrote:
The slow production of somebody who has already lapped the field several times and is now absorbed in where his muse leads him only increases people's interest in what he's doing.

See what Yak did there? He's saying exactly the same thing you are, PD. Smile

Rad
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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:54 am

Stradivari, at his peak (& with his two sons helping him), turned out around 20 instruments a year.

Top modern makers average around four.

The difference is that now their market is international and interconnected. Reaching that Reputation = $$$$ point took Stradivari 50 years. Somebody can start a buzz this week on the next great thing maker and, as we see here with tobaccos and pipes, the thundering herd thunders.

What I'm telling you about time is based on generations'-worth of common knowledge in the violin-&-bow making & restoring trade.

As in anything else, time is money. And in a system where there's no alternative to that (like Cavicchi having farmed during the summer & made pipes during winter down time) (the basis of a LOT of artisan trades in centuries past), it's a see-saw. There's a ceiling to how much you can consistently get, and costs involved. The variable you can manipulate is time.

Short of an essay, that's what I can offer.

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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:11 am

One classic of the future: the re-release of the MM Bulldog Cob. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:25 am

🤦

It's a dynamic equation, PeeDee.

Claudio Cavicchi is, IMO, THE master Italian maker. The Artist of pipemaking in Italy.

His work goes cheap in relation to its excellence as Art because he works at breakneck speed. On the basis of having had three of his pipes, when I see one I expect to find marks left on the stummel from the shaping wheel &/or rasps he uses. He uses cast stems that his wife fits & halfass finishes. His tennons show lathe marks & his shoulders aren't polished. For Castello money, people expect Castello polish, and he doesn't eat up hours and hours doing that. He's found the point where the Time and Money curves intersect and makes his living there.

But he makes the tough shapes. And so expertly that they astonish people. I remember TJ's mind being just blown that a CC billiard he got was a "sitter" even though it had no flat on the underside. It was that symmetrical and well-balanced. That level of excellence at 90 miles an hour is the signature of the Master Craftsman.

Castello makes its living with great briar, easy shapes, and a shop full of journeymen polishing what the craftsmen turn out. I.e., they make journeyman polishing time equal money. It works and it works well. But when Ascorti and Radice pulled out, their profile in Art took a gut punch.

Italy is full of good makers. It would not be hard to come up with 20 or so "names" that turn out nice stuff -- almost all of them with the team approach. Even the Sicilians. Some of them manage Castello's level of fit & finish. They're good, commercially viable pipes. But none of them are Cavicchi or, in days past, Radice or Ascorti. (And even there you have the tension between Art and Volume in a nutshell).

100 years ago, MOST of the Names in pipemaking would be working in a factory as foremen or specialist craftsmen.

Bottom line : there's lots of Good out there today. And a lot of "craftsman" hype. But Artists in briar are as rare as they were in 1930 -- maybe rarer. Because people get ahead of themselves and hype provides them with reputations they haven't -- in this old fart's estimation -- earned.

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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:42 am

Any fiddle player in even a half decent orchestra could probably turn out -- as soloist -- an acceptable recording of a major concerto -- given enough re-takes & splices.

I remember one recording of the Pagannini 24 caprices that a recording engineer analysed and was amazed to find was a pistache of hundreds of digital punch-ins.

Stuff like that sounds like stuff like that.

Compare Heifetz. RCA booked a recording session for him to record the Walton Concerto. The orchestra's been rehearsed, Heifetz shows up, they roll the tape, and what the conductor & producer think is a trial-run goes down. The orchestra takes a smoke break and the conductor goes looking for Heifetz to go over some spots for the next take. He's on his way out the door with his coat on with a train to catch for his next engagement. That was IT. Print it.

Segovia and Cassals used to amaze recordists with the "one-take" perfection of their playing. They didn't need an afternoon of trying to get something right. And their "right" was head and shoulders above other peoples' garden variety "pretty good." Still is. 80 years later.

That's mastery, PeeDee.

Nathan Milstein wrote:
I don't know what "difficult" is.

Either you can play, or you can't.

The term "artist" has been so abused by merchandisers with shlock to sell that it's become meaningless to people in general. Because it's applied to everything, indiscriminately. Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:25 am

Rad, he's contradicting himself.

The master can slow down and get more $ for his work.
The master is the one who cranks them out.
Stradivarius is the master because he put out 5 times as many and they were better.
Cavicchi i the master because he puts out more and they usually have defects.

Facepalm?

Ya lost me.

PS, Cavicchi is hardly THE master of Italian pipe carving. That suggests high standards, and by your own admission his pipes are often flawed and usually inexpensive. I don't think the same can be said of the Danish masters - Ivarsson, Chonowitsch, Eltang, etc..

From Merriams:

Journeyman:

1. A worker who has learned a trade and works for another person usually by the day

2. an experienced reliable worker, athlete, or performer especially as distinguished from one who is brilliant or colorful.

Master Craftsman:

A person of exceptional skill at something.



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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:28 am

Oh, and I'm aware we're digressing into semantic definitions, but it's worth the discussion if we're altering the argument to "Who is and isn't a master pipe carver, and why or why not"?


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PostSubject: Re: What are/will be the "classics" of the future?   Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:36 am

The guy I had in mind who slowed down was Beethoven. But I edited that out. Although I suppose you could use Bo Nordh in his place.

If everything I've screeded up to this point hasn't gotten across, I doubt there's be anything I could add that would. But I'll try.

Cavicchi is the Giotto who draws perfect circles, freehand. One of his pipes, or one of Rad's is, as Art, worth 25,000,000 made with frazing machines. Commercially, the 25,000 are a different story. But we're talking about artists here. Not commercially astute manufacturers.

And yes, there is a Dunhill/Barling/Comoy/BBB/Gbd/Sasieni Art -- the art of the frazing machine pipe. Like engravings are lithographs are Art (or can be).

But it's not the same thing.

Polishing average stuff results in polished average stuff. Not art. Art is Art whether it's polished or not. And some of Beethoven's later stuff certainly isn't.

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