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 Pipes Don't Breathe!

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Thomas Tkach

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PostSubject: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Fri Nov 28, 2014 6:25 pm

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Dutch

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:03 pm

Come to think of it, I suppose briar and cobs don't breathe. If they did, you would need to run them through 2 or 3 cardio sessions each week, or else risk them dying a slow death from cardiovascular disease. Suspect



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Cartaphilus

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:23 pm

Dutch wrote:
Come to think of it, I suppose briar and cobs don't breathe. If they did, you would need to run them through 2 or 3 cardio sessions each week, or else risk them dying a slow death from cardiovascular disease.  Suspect




Ya know I think your right, I've never heard any of mine take a breath.
Although I have had them spit in my mouth a few times in the past.
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Brewdude

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:21 pm

Cartaphilus wrote:
Dutch wrote:
Come to think of it, I suppose briar and cobs don't breathe. If they did, you would need to run them through 2 or 3 cardio sessions each week, or else risk them dying a slow death from cardiovascular disease.  Suspect




Ya know I think your right, I've never heard any of mine take a breath.
Although I have had them spit in my mouth a few times in the past.


eewww......... pale



Cheers,

RR
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monbla256

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:07 pm

Well of coarse they can't breath, their inanimate objects !! duh Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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Cartaphilus

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:11 am

monbla256 wrote:
Well of coarse they can't breath, their inanimate objects !!  duh Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

You mean yours don't talk to ya? Suspect
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SpeedyPete



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Location : Cape Town
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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:39 am

Some pipes sweat! Peterson red dye.

So, if they can sweat, surely they must breathe as well? I have a couple which can whistle too. And gurgle. And bite and spit.

Pipes are living creations. Treat them bad, misuse them and see how they come back to you.

Want more proof?
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Cartaphilus

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:12 am

SpeedyPete wrote:
Some pipes sweat!

Try maybe Antiperspirant.
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Thomas Tkach

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:46 pm

I don't think there has been one serious reply to the topic of the video yet. Did anyone actually watch it?

Even on this board I see from time to time someone talking about how the natural cobs smoke better because they breathe or that only a natural finish like carn wax should be used so that the pipe can breathe and smoke better. Shellac is anathema! or so the argument goes. But, shellac is also natural, is not a great moisture barrier, and wax isn't breathable! I was just trying to kill that pernicious myth.
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SpeedyPete



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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Two guys formed an opinion........should I believe THEM or rather stick to what I experience?
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monbla256

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:21 pm

Thomas Tkach wrote:

I was just trying to kill that pernicious myth.

This whole activity of pipe smoking is BASED on these !! Twisted Evil You want to have FACTS? Then why have a forum to discuss the veracity of the myths? Just publish a sting of these "facts" and be done with it !! Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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Stick

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:21 pm

Experience is just that, isn't it? I mean we all have our experiences and it's from these that our opinions are formed. Trouble is, very often our experiences are not the same as others'. But who's right?!?! A different experience doesn't automatically have a right or wrong association.

Thomas, interesting concept and a pair of chilled chaps in the video. Pipes breathing? Gosh, in my limited experience  I'd be hard pressed to go one way or the other. I can only offer that breathing suggests a gaseous exchange.  The fellas in the video only tested for a water transition. Gases are capable of moving through membranes that liquids can't; PTFE which makes up the goretex membrane being an example. Perhaps briar is capable of this?
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bentbulldog

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:57 pm

This is too funny!!

I give my pipes names!
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Thomas Tkach

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:23 pm

Stick wrote:
Experience is just that, isn't it? I mean we all have our experiences and it's from these that our opinions are formed. Trouble is, very often our experiences are not the same as others'. But who's right?!?! A different experience doesn't automatically have a right or wrong association.

Thomas, interesting concept and a pair of chilled chaps in the video. Pipes breathing? Gosh, in my limited experience  I'd be hard pressed to go one way or the other. I can only offer that breathing suggests a gaseous exchange.  The fellas in the video only tested for a water transition. Gases are capable of moving through membranes that liquids can't; PTFE which makes up the goretex membrane being an example. Perhaps briar is capable of this?

I imagine if that were the case, we'd have briar slivers rather than gore-tex in our hiking boots. I just don't see wood has having the same properties as a high-tech synthetic membrane. Try plugging your noses and breathing with your mouth pressed against a slab of briar. I'm guessing it wouldn't work too well. Then post a picture for us to laugh at. lol!

What's more, briar's breathability or lack-thereof isn't the main issue. The real issue is basically whether wax is more breathable than shellac. Carnauba is the standard finish, but does anyone complain about how it blocks up the pores of a pipe and makes it smoke hot/wet since it's not breathing?

I imagine the myth started over anecdotal evidence based on poorly-made pipes with a thick, glossy coating used to cover bad grain. Correlation does not equal causation. The coating didn't harm the smoking properties, but the lack of attention to engineering which you'd expect from a company that also had a lack of attention to the aesthetics of briar (or maybe even the curing of the briar) was probably the cause of a bad smoker. From there confirmation bias took over and the 'all shellaced pipes smoke horribly' myth was born.

I know that lots of high-grade pipe carvers I can't afford use shellac, and I use it myself when I carve or re-stain an estate pipe. It's not done any harm yet.
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SpeedyPete



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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:43 pm

Cartaphilus wrote:
SpeedyPete wrote:
Some pipes sweat!

Try maybe Antiperspirant.

But I use it every day instead of taking a shower Twisted Evil
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Cartaphilus

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:31 pm

SpeedyPete wrote:
Cartaphilus wrote:
SpeedyPete wrote:
Some pipes sweat!

Try maybe Antiperspirant.

But I use it every day instead of taking a shower Twisted Evil

Then maybe it's a good thing you live in Cape Town.

I can't help from thinking about your sweating pipe though, maybe the briar wasn't dried thoroughly enough before it was made into a pipe and when you smoked it the heat generated inside the bowl forced the moisture out, thus causing sweating. If the briar couldn't breath as we say, the moisture would not have been able to escape like it did.
This makes more sense to me.
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:12 pm

This is one of those discussions that gets batted around ala cats with a nepeta-infused mouse-toy, until someone like Greg Pease steps in and shares pros/cons on either side. Laughing I think these guys were pretty on-target.

Bad pipe smoking habits = a lot of dissatisfied piping.


Cool


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SpeedyPete



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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:49 pm

No piece of wood is solid, like stainless steel.

Now, pipes do not breathe like humans. What is meant is that air can move through the wood. Thus, the pipe is breathing (not breeding or bleeding). Although, come to think of it, my Peterson might be bleeding? Red stuff oozing from the briar? Living creature?

I'm off to bed now, will think about it during the night and let you know.
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Thomas Tkach

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:05 pm

Cartaphilus wrote:
SpeedyPete wrote:
Cartaphilus wrote:
SpeedyPete wrote:
Some pipes sweat!

Try maybe Antiperspirant.

But I use it every day instead of taking a shower Twisted Evil

Then maybe it's a good thing you live in Cape Town.

I can't help from thinking about your sweating pipe though, maybe the briar wasn't dried thoroughly enough before it was made into a pipe and when you smoked it the heat generated inside the bowl forced the moisture out, thus causing sweating. If the briar couldn't breath as we say, the moisture would not have been able to escape like it did.
This makes more sense to me.

Or the moisture might have come from his hands and picked up the stain because it wasn't properly finished.

GP is a wealth of knowledge, but in this instance I think you want to hear from professional pipe makers, like those in the posted video or those who share their knowledge on PMF. Here is a thread about satin coming off (and about using shellac).
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:15 am

Greg knows a fair bit beyond the norm; this you can be assured. I hate to tell ya, Bro TT, but even pipemakers have opinions, faulty logic and fallibility. Much is discussed, agreed upon, disagreed upon, and so on. I read quite a bit over there. Sasquatch probably leads my base of reference in that arena, and then Marty Pulvers rounds out the bunch after Greg. Personally, I can only take so much expertise before it becomes noise. And there's a ton of expertise over at PMF. The pipe makers I like the most are the ones that spend their time making pipes.

Coming here and debating the specifics of briar "breathing" is like going to a Best Burger Eating Fan Page and bringing up the finer points of the origins of modern French cooking.

So... battles/discussions chosen wisely (or with purpose) vs. chaos for the sake of it/lack of other things to bring up? Especially when there was some discontent at the humor derailing any seriousness. 🤷

Not sure what this thread is trying to accomplish for either the OP or all attending, honestly. But please, continue.

Cool

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SpeedyPete



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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:29 am

Thou shalt not kill (not even myths).
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Thomas Tkach

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:17 am

Kyle Weiss wrote:
Greg knows a fair bit beyond the norm; this you can be assured.   I hate to tell ya, Bro TT, but even pipemakers have opinions, faulty logic and fallibility.  Much is discussed, agreed upon, disagreed upon, and so on.   I read quite a bit over there.   Sasquatch probably leads my base of reference in that arena, and then Marty Pulvers rounds out the bunch after Greg.   Personally, I can only take so much expertise before it becomes noise.   And there's a ton of expertise over at PMF.    The pipe makers I like the most are the ones that spend their time making pipes.      

Coming here and debating the specifics of briar "breathing" is like going to a Best Burger Eating Fan Page and bringing up the finer points of the origins of modern French cooking.

So... battles/discussions chosen wisely (or with purpose) vs. chaos for the sake of it/lack of other things to bring up?   Especially when there was some discontent at the humor derailing any seriousness.  🤷  

Not sure what this thread is trying to accomplish for either the OP or all attending, honestly.    But please, continue.    

Cool


I'm sure GP does know much more than the average pipe enthusiast for sure. My point was just that there are people who spend all day every day working with briar and have done so for years.

I don't mind the humor, but I thought the discussion was an important one for some practical reasons. It's not just a hypothetical debate for argument's sake, but bears on whether you buy a pipe with shellac on it or not. It determines if you waste a bunch of time refinishing a pipe because you think the finish is giving it poor smoking qualities, as you yourself mentioned in this thread. Sasquatch and Trevor Talbert agree with the point I was trying to make by posting the video in this thread (actually, I should say I agree with them).
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:16 pm

Sure, man. Trevor and Sas are top-notch.

Back then (re: post referenced) I was surmising that which I didn't know, supplementing advice, and relying on what I did know. Seems I'm still on the same page, by luck or by apt learning--I still smoke that pipe with a very light shellacking and it smokes just fine. 🤷

Still, you're in a burger forum expecting a serious fondness for foie gras, if that metaphor isn't worn out quite yet.

Cool


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glpease
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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:22 pm

SpeedyPete wrote:
Two guys formed an opinion........should I believe THEM or rather stick to what I experience?

Experience trumps, right? Empirical data can be anecdotal, but sufficient data points establish a trend.

I have one personally verified data point. I had a pipe that smoked well and tasted good, but was cheap enough to sacrifice for an experiment. I applied a thin coat of polyurethane to the outside, carefully ensuring that the chamber and airway were untouched. After letting it cure long enough for the smell to gas off, I smoked it. It looked great, but was horrible to smoke. It was hot, wet, and tasted bad. Part of that taste was from the poly, but part it may not have been.

There's more to what goes on in a pipe when it's smoked than can be approximated by filling a bowl with water. There are thermal gradients that cause the capillaries (xylem and phloem) to open and contract, not to mention the fact that the distillates from smoldering tobacco are quite dissimilar to water. I know more than one pipe maker who has experienced stain seeping through the walls of a bowl when finishing it. What about the way tobacco aromatic compounds not only cling to the wood, but sometimes migrate through it during smoking? (Smell your fingers...)

Trivial, reductionistic approaches to attempting to understand something as complex as what is going on within a pipe are perhaps amusing, but they are little more than a starting point for more complete investigation. After over 30 years of exploring the mysteries of the pipe, I will say unequivocally that there are things happening that we've not yet figured out, and those mysteries will not yield to simplistic approaches. Though there are more similarities than differences between pipes, it's the differences that make things interesting.

And, since my qualifications to discuss these things seems to have come under some scrutiny, I've handled, smoked, restored, tuned more pipes than most of these professionals will produce in their lifetimes. At last estimate, well over 4000 pipes have been through my hands. (That would be 80 years production for someone making 50 a year...) I may have learnt a thing or two along the way.

One additional point - I earn no money making or selling pipes, so have no horse in that race. My only goal, ever, has been to find the greatest possible pleasure I can get from my pipes, and to share whatever understanding I may have gathered with others in the hopes that, perhaps, it might bring them greater enjoyment. Those who make and sell pipes may have additional motivations...
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SpeedyPete



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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:51 pm

I prefer to stick to my OWN experience, mr Pease, same as you do Very Happy I thank you for your reply which should bring an end to this discussion.
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