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 Pipes Don't Breathe!

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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:48 am

Aw, geez, Greg, what'ja go and have to come in here with all that damn sense you make? Laughing

Also, encasing pipes in tin, the new thing? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Also, also...what's this bit about there's mysteries and things we haven't discovered about the pipe?

I mean...



I love you

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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:00 am

Is that THE Greg Pease from GL Pease tobaccos? Boy that's nifty. I don't trust him though, he's probably in cahoots with all those pipe makers with funny names trying to pawn off their fancy schmancy pipes when we all know there's no better pipe than a Dr Grabow... Says so right on the packaging.
Dr Grabow don't use no shellac on his pipes, nuff said!
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Simple Man

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:24 am

glpease wrote:
What about the way tobacco aromatic compounds not only cling to the wood, but sometimes migrate through it during smoking? (Smell your fingers...)


I wouldn't take you on in this argument, because you may be right, but my guess is any scent of aromatic that ends up on your hands while smoking is coming from the smoke and fumes that you don't see coming from the top of the bowl instead of through the bowl. In my mind if that much aroma (smoke) worked it's way through a bowl that you would notice it on your hands, then unfinished pipes like Nordings would show considerable darkening after just a few smokes. But from what I have seen with them, they darken very slowly and appear to darken more from the oils on hands mixed with the heat of the bowl than from smoke and moisture the way meerschaum does. You've been around pipes and smoking a lot longer than I have though and I wouldn't stand by this argument, just some personal observation and thoughts. FWIW
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:39 am

puros_bran wrote:
Is that THE Greg Pease from GL Pease tobaccos?  

Mighta been Gaston Pease, man of many card tricks, junior bullfighter, and speedo model extraordinaire... but who cares, a Pease is a Pease.

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Thomas Tkach

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:08 pm

I typed up a long response after Mr. Pease's post which the internet ate. I basically was apologizing if I demeaned your knowledge or denied you a place in the discussion, because I didn't intend to. I think you bring up some valid points, especially about complexity of the situation and the need for further discussion and experimentation.

All I wanted was frank discussion in the first place, but somehow the tone seemed to get a bit combative. I apologize for my part in that, and I meant no hard feelings. Smoke in peace, everyone (especially if you're smoking Pease tobaccos(; ).
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SpeedyPete



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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:22 pm

puros_bran wrote:
Is that THE Greg Pease from GL Pease tobaccos?   Boy that's nifty.  I don't trust him though, he's probably in cahoots with all those pipe makers with funny names trying to pawn off their fancy schmancy pipes when we all know there's no better pipe than a Dr Grabow... Says so right on the packaging.
Dr Grabow don't use no shellac on his pipes, nuff said!

Shocked lol!
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desertpiper

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:24 pm

So, I watched the video. And as far as stain penetration goes, couldn't say. Cutting up one pipe and proclaiming stain does not penetrate is not very convincing.
Doing a "water test" and applying it to air is incorrect, apples and oranges. Especially after saying the water penetrated 1/32. cool water in an unlit pipe can't be compared to hot gasses in a heated pipe bowl. I would have to agree with Mr Pease on that one. And to proclaim that brier does not breathe doesn't cut it either. Seeing that pretty much everything on this blue marble "breathes" to some extent or other. Wood is porous, some more than others but porous. Does it breath like we do of course not, is it measurable probably (with the right equipment).
You have been smoking pipes with the outside well coated and they smoke fine, great enjoy them. But maybe ask your self, would they smoke better with out the coating. Would make for some interesting experimenting.
Me personally, I probably wouldn't know the difference. I don't smoke enough.
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:33 pm

Thomas Tkach wrote:
I typed up a long response after Mr. Pease's post which the internet ate. I basically was apologizing if I demeaned your knowledge or denied you a place in the discussion, because I didn't intend to. I think you bring up some valid points, especially about complexity of the situation and the need for further discussion and experimentation.

All I wanted was frank discussion in the first place, but somehow the tone seemed to get a bit combative. I apologize for my part in that, and I meant no hard feelings. Smoke in peace, everyone (especially if you're smoking Pease tobaccos(; ).

Not that Greg (or Gaston) need me chortling for 'em, I'm pretty sure no harm was done.
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glpease
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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:58 am

Simple Man wrote:
glpease wrote:
What about the way tobacco aromatic compounds not only cling to the wood, but sometimes migrate through it during smoking? (Smell your fingers...)


I wouldn't take you on in this argument, because you may be right, but my guess is any scent of aromatic that ends up on your hands while smoking is coming from the smoke and fumes that you don't see coming from the top of the bowl instead of through the bowl. In my mind if that much aroma (smoke) worked it's way through a bowl that you would notice it on your hands, then unfinished pipes like Nordings would show considerable darkening after just a few smokes. But from what I have seen with them, they darken very slowly and appear to darken more from the oils on hands mixed with the heat of the bowl than from smoke and moisture the way meerschaum does. You've been around pipes and smoking a lot longer than I have though and I wouldn't stand by this argument, just some personal observation and thoughts. FWIW

The molecules responsible for aroma are not the same as the ones  that darken bowls, so there's no real comparison there. Think of the plastic bags that are used to hold bulk tobacco. You can smell the tobacco through the bags because the membrane is permeable to the aroma compounds, while water moisture is retained for months or even years.

That's part of what's wrong with so many of the arguments against some of the empirical observations that have withstood the test of time. (I'm not saying there isn't plenty of mythology, but not all of the "ancient wisdom" is false.) Again, it's a complex system, and doesn't yield to readily to first approximation analysis, let alone the reductionistic approach taken by the apologists for the new wave. I'm far from anti-positivistic, but filling a bowl with water is a meaningless experiment. Wood boats float because water doesn't just barge through their hulls. Filling a bowl with a molecular cocktail that more closely resembles the complicated mélange that distills out of smoldering tobacco, and then subjecting the pipe to the appropriate temperature variations would yield somewhat more interesting, and meaningful results. Any takers?

Briar pipes have been around for about 160 years. Some of those old gems in my collection smoke divinely, despite the fact that their makers clearly didn't know how to "engineer" a pipe, didn't have spiffy formulae for bowl coatings, or fancy finishing techniques. I'm not saying that some of these new makers aren't producing some fantastic pipes, but I think too much attention is paid to what THEY do, and not enough is given the briar's contribution - something over which the maker has precious little control.
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glpease
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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:13 am

puros_bran wrote:

Dr Grabow don't use no shellac on his pipes, nuff said!

True. But, do they burn out? He don't use no bowl coatings, neither. Wink

A collector friend of mine bought a Grabow, promising that he'd give it a fair shot. He's had it almost two years, now. I asked when he was going to perform his experiment. He somewhat reluctantly admitted that he was afraid that it just might end up smoking well...

I've got an old Yellobole that's actually a pretty fair smoke.
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glpease
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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:39 am

Thomas Tkach wrote:
I typed up a long response after Mr. Pease's post which the internet ate. I basically was apologizing if I demeaned your knowledge or denied you a place in the discussion, because I didn't intend to. I think you bring up some valid points, especially about complexity of the situation and the need for further discussion and experimentation.

All I wanted was frank discussion in the first place, but somehow the tone seemed to get a bit combative. I apologize for my part in that, and I meant no hard feelings. Smoke in peace, everyone (especially if you're smoking Pease tobaccos(; ).

No worries. It takes a lot more than this to get my knickers twisted.
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Simple Man

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:58 am

glpease wrote:
Simple Man wrote:
glpease wrote:
What about the way tobacco aromatic compounds not only cling to the wood, but sometimes migrate through it during smoking? (Smell your fingers...)


I wouldn't take you on in this argument, because you may be right, but my guess is any scent of aromatic that ends up on your hands while smoking is coming from the smoke and fumes that you don't see coming from the top of the bowl instead of through the bowl. In my mind if that much aroma (smoke) worked it's way through a bowl that you would notice it on your hands, then unfinished pipes like Nordings would show considerable darkening after just a few smokes. But from what I have seen with them, they darken very slowly and appear to darken more from the oils on hands mixed with the heat of the bowl than from smoke and moisture the way meerschaum does. You've been around pipes and smoking a lot longer than I have though and I wouldn't stand by this argument, just some personal observation and thoughts. FWIW

The molecules responsible for aroma are not the same as the ones  that darken bowls, so there's no real comparison there. Think of the plastic bags that are used to hold bulk tobacco. You can smell the tobacco through the bags because the membrane is permeable to the aroma compounds, while water moisture is retained for months or even years.

That's part of what's wrong with so many of the arguments against some of the empirical observations that have withstood the test of time. (I'm not saying there isn't plenty of mythology, but not all of the "ancient wisdom" is false.) Again, it's a complex system, and doesn't yield to readily to first approximation analysis, let alone the reductionistic approach taken by the apologists for the new wave. I'm far from anti-positivistic, but filling a bowl with water is a meaningless experiment. Wood boats float because water doesn't just barge through their hulls. Filling a bowl with a molecular cocktail that more closely resembles the complicated mélange that distills out of smoldering tobacco, and then subjecting the pipe to the appropriate temperature variations would yield somewhat more interesting, and meaningful results. Any takers?

Briar pipes have been around for about 160 years. Some of those old gems in my collection smoke divinely, despite the fact that their makers clearly didn't know how to "engineer" a pipe, didn't have spiffy formulae for bowl coatings, or fancy finishing techniques. I'm not saying that some of these new makers aren't producing some fantastic pipes, but I think too much attention is paid to what THEY do, and not enough is given the briar's contribution - something over which the maker has precious little control.

Makes sense.

glpease wrote:
puros_bran wrote:

Dr Grabow don't use no shellac on his pipes, nuff said!

True. But, do they burn out? He don't use no bowl coatings, neither. Wink

A collector friend of mine bought a Grabow, promising that he'd give it a fair shot. He's had it almost two years, now. I asked when he was going to perform his experiment. He somewhat reluctantly admitted that he was afraid that it just might end up smoking well...

I've got an old Yellobole that's actually a pretty fair smoke.

I've also got an old Grabow viscount bulldog... I bought it mostly because it was cheap and in really nice unsmoked condition. I thought it would actually smoke hot though. I was surprised at how well it does smoke. I mostly use it for burleys.
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Feazelle-n-it

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:19 pm

My basket pipe is shellacked and it is one of my better smokers. I don't think it hurt it at all. If it smokes well, who really cares?
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monbla256

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:31 pm

[quote="glpease"]
Simple Man wrote:
glpease wrote:
What about the way tobacco aromatic compounds not only cling to the wood, but sometimes migrate through it during smoking? (Smell your fingers...)


That's part of what's wrong with so many of the arguments against some of the empirical observations that have withstood the test of time. (I'm not saying there isn't plenty of mythology, but not all of the "ancient wisdom" is false.) Again, it's a complex system, and doesn't yield to readily to first approximation analysis, let alone the reductionistic approach taken by the apologists for the new wave. I'm far from anti-positivistic, but filling a bowl with water is a meaningless experiment. Wood boats float because water doesn't just barge through their hulls. Filling a bowl with a molecular cocktail that more closely resembles the complicated mélange that distills out of smoldering tobacco, and then subjecting the pipe to the appropriate temperature variations would yield somewhat more interesting, and meaningful results. Any takers?

Briar pipes have been around for about 160 years. Some of those old gems in my collection smoke divinely, despite the fact that their makers clearly didn't know how to "engineer" a pipe, didn't have spiffy formulae for bowl coatings, or fancy finishing techniques. I'm not saying that some of these new makers aren't producing some fantastic pipes, but I think too much attention is paid to what THEY do, and not enough is given the briar's contribution - something over which the maker has precious little control.

I would have to say Greg's hit the nail on the head with this statemrnt! The old classic pipe firms spent a LOT of time and EFFORT Carefully aquiring, ageing and selecting the WOOD that was used in thier pipes !! I've seen old photos of the Barling folks over in Algeria selecting the wood that went into their pipes PERSONALLY !! If one has any older Barlings they are not the greatest in grain appearancem yet as a SMOKING PIPE they cannot be equaled by many of todays custom makers as they don't have available the WOOD that was available then !! Just as folks AGE 'baccy, OLD wood is better !! Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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Richard Burley

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:07 pm

Kyle Weiss wrote:
 

Not sure what this thread is trying to accomplish for either the OP or all attending, honestly.    But please, continue.    

Cool

Me! Me!  

Here's my foggy notion to add to the b.s.  I don't know if pipes "breathe," not without someone defining the term, but different pipes do different things with the same tobacco.  Something different is going on with a pipe made of green wood versus one made of aged wood.  Could something akin to sap be "plugging" the green pipe?  Could something akin to osmosis be occurring in the aged wood pipe?  It's a mystery that seemingly transports us to a mystical realm, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if we come to no conclusion at all.  The thought of tossing back a dram of bourbon immediately comes to mind--but that's just me.
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SpeedyPete



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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:27 pm

What happens when you draw on a pipe? Air flows in via the bowl and exits via the stem. Maybe some smart guy will say yes, but that's artificial respiration. So be it but it's still respiration/breathing.

You heard about the rich guy who asked the medic what he was doing, trying to bring a body back to life? So the medic said: "I'm giving this person artificial respiration". To which the rich man replied: "To hell with artificial respiration, give the man the real thing, I will pay".

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:32 pm

Interesting discussion. Without defending one side or the other, I can offer my observations, which seem to corroborate the idea that briar pipes don't breathe--or at least not as much as one might think.

I have several varnished pipes. I don't know what varnishing agent is used, but they all are Rinaldos, if that makes any difference. They smoke as well as any other non-varnished pipes, but they did not darken noticeably with time. After smoking, my fingers smell just like if I smoked any other pipe.

I've noticed waxed pipes darken with time, but the darkening happens at the bowl walls, where I hold the pipe, and not at the shank. The shanks of my pipes are always lighter than the bowls, but the shank is where most of the moisture collects. That is attested by looking at meerschaum pipes, which darken at the shank before anywhere else. These observations also suggest that the staining primarily comes from the fingers, not from tobacco.

I've reamed pipes to bare wood. The wood seemed dry and virgin, but I've never sectioned a pipe to say for sure. I've also carved smoked pipes from the outside to remove the stain. Once again, the wood seemed dry and not stained in any way.

I don't know what really happens, but it seems that there may be evidence to support both sides of the argument... I think.
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:50 pm

glpease wrote:
puros_bran wrote:

Dr Grabow don't use no shellac on his pipes, nuff said!

True. But, do they burn out? He don't use no bowl coatings, neither. Wink

A collector friend of mine bought a Grabow, promising that he'd give it a fair shot. He's had it almost two years, now. I asked when he was going to perform his experiment. He somewhat reluctantly admitted that he was afraid that it just might end up smoking well...

I've got an old Yellobole that's actually a pretty fair smoke.

Honestly I have no clue as I've never owned one. I was just attempting to be funny.  
If I was forced into a serious answer: They most definitely are porous. If that's what we are refering to as breathing, then yes they breathe.    I think it was Mike Brisset (RIP Dear Bro) that performed a test on an unfinished pipe where he took a piece of briar he'd carved and filled it with finish only to have it 'leaking' out of the pipes walls in a couple hours.  He also tried the test in reverse by floating an unfinished pipe in finish but the stain never made it to the bowl.  Why?  I have no clue.
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Simple Man

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:50 pm

Somebody take a band-saw and cut an old well used pipe into very thin slices the way they do on the human body displays... should be easy enough to figure out from there. Wink

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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:55 pm

It's been done many time Simple.. The problem is the same as just cutting up a human brain and trying to figure it all at from there... Stuff happens in a briar.. Differing temps, differing moisture, differing oils from differing tobaccos... Etc etc etc etc etc etc.

This is one of those instance where it's being over thought.. Just smoke the damn thing and be happy. Lol
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Simple Man

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:03 pm

puros_bran wrote:
It's been done many time Simple..  The problem is the same as just cutting up a human brain and trying to figure it all at from there...  Stuff happens in a briar.. Differing temps, differing moisture, differing oils from differing tobaccos... Etc etc etc etc etc etc.  

This is one of those instance where it's being over thought.. Just smoke the damn thing and be happy.  Lol

I was just kidding... I had no idea someone really would slice up a pipe. Laughing
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Kyle Weiss

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PostSubject: Re: Pipes Don't Breathe!   Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:34 pm

Looks like the sanity and direction came to this discussion after all.

Depending on how one looks at it.

All I know is if it smokes great and the tobacco is great, I rinse and repeat.

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