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 Remember Pete Rose?

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MisterE
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PostSubject: Remember Pete Rose?   Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:12 pm

Having a little more free time than usual these last couple of days, I got to thinking about the Big Red Machine. Most of you guys from my generation (I'm 48 now) will remember the Cincinnati Reds in their prime. Many will also remember Pete Rose and all the controversy which ended in his lifetime ban from baseball, and ultimately his ineligibility from entering baseball's hallowed Hall of Fame.

Look at these stats, and tell me what you think. Is it time to forgive the man and focus on his achievements? Or is it better to honor the ban, and exclude him forever? I personally believe the man was among the best ever. His stats prove it. Yes, he screwed the pooch with his gambling addiction, but claimed never then have bet against his own team.

What say youse? Should bygones be bygones?


Major League records:

Most career winning games played – 1,972
Most career games played – 3,562
Only player to play at least 500 games at five different positions – 1B (939), LF (671), 3B (634), 2B (628), RF (595)
Most career at bats – 14,053
Most career singles – 3,215
Most career hits – 4,256
Most career outs – 10,328
Most career runs by a switch hitter – 2,165
Most career doubles by a switch hitter – 746
Most career walks by a switch hitter – 1,566
Most career total bases by a switch hitter – 5,752
Most seasons of 200 or more hits – 10 (shared)
Most consecutive seasons of 100 or more hits – 23
Most consecutive seasons with 600 or more at bats – 13 (1968–1980)
Most seasons with 600 at bats – 17
Most seasons with 150 or more games played – 17
Most seasons with 100 or more games played – 23
National League records:
Most years played – 24
Most consecutive years played – 24
Most career runs – 2,165
Most career doubles – 746
Most career games with 5 or more hits – 10
Modern (post-1900) NL record for longest consecutive-game hitting streak NL – 44
Modern record for most consecutive hitting streaks of 20 or more games – 7

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Dutch

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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:50 am

Personally, I never thought the punishment fit the crime.

I mean come on, ban him from baseball forever, and never allow him or his stats into the Hall of Fame?

Then years later, they send him to Marion Federal Penitentiary for filing false tax returns. The judge was probably a huge baseball fan, with a grudge he never let go of.

Another thing to consider, is that the public usually prefers to see celebrities get a slap on the wrist instead jail time, and they usually do, but they never showed Pete much mercy.

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leacha

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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:37 am

He was one helluva player.

I do not have the desire to Google it but didn't someone come forth with his bookie's notebook showing he bet as a player and against his team. Up until that revelation he still lied about what he has done. He broke a big rule and if he would have come clean all those years ago all may be forgiven by now. So in my opinion, scr*w him.
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DrumsAndBeer

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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:00 pm

Hands down, one of the best players to ever play the game. I agree the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Pete Rose the player should with out a doubt be in the Hall of Fame..

My favorite Pete Rose play, bases were loaded by the way...

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Bullwinkle

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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:58 am

I have always insisted he should be in the HOF.. But if what I heard about him betting while he was still playing is true, goodbye Pete.
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:13 pm

Thank Johnny Bench.. Without Pete formally acknowledged bench can be argued as the greatest Red of all time. With Pete acknowledged its laughable to even suggest.
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Stick

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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:11 pm

Impressive stats. However, [from my limited understanding of the situation] as one would say in Blighty, his actions were simply not cricket.
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Stick

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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:14 pm

Impressive stats. However, [from my limited understanding of the situation] as one would say in Blighty, his actions were simply not cricket.
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:20 pm

He was betting on his team to win.. Not such a horrible thing.

The argument is that being a manager he had 'insider information' not available to the general public concerning the other teams players.. You know because before games managers get together and tell each other the teams weaknesses "pitch low and away and Jones will swing everytime, and oh don't worry about Miller stealing any bases he tweaked his ankle last night, and my entire outfield if hung over".

I can understand him being banned for a few games, maybe fined. But banned for life is just ridiculous. I don't even like The Big Red Machine and I think it's crazy. Hell that douche-bag in New England openly cheats and they let him coach, and win.. Pete bets on his team to win and he's gone for life. Shake my head.
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Stick

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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:39 pm

Peeb, betting on his team to win? Was that it? If so a ban for life does seem excessive.
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hobie1dog

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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:31 pm

I am from the Cincinnati area and he was the MAN, and always will be for Reds fans.
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MisterE
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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:05 am

I think a lot of it had to do with how much the media loves to pull someone down. The cleaner the image, the harder the fall. People just LOVE that. They made an really, really bad example of him. I personally don't believe he falls in the same category as say OJ Simpson. But he got just about the same treatment in the press.

I read that he's doing some consulting work for one of the major sports channels this year. Maybe with some positive exposure for a change, they'll lift the ban.

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Stick

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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:58 am

I'd like to hear the rationale behind his ban. It would probably make for an interesting read.
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:35 pm

Google is your friend Stick.. You can find all kind of material on the matter.. Wikipedia goes pretty in depth.

The gist of the matter is there was never evidence he bet Against the Reds. Quit the contrary there's evidence he bet on the Reds to win every night. There's Literally only a handful of games in a 4 year span where there's no proof he placed a bet. But he was betting upwards of $10,000 per day in the 80's, it's possible the records for those days weren't found or some days he didn't have the money or couldn't make the call for whatever reason.

When he agreed to the deal to be 'ineligable for baseball' there was a rule that stated he could be reinstated after 12 months. That rule may or may not still be in effect, I don't know. But I know there's no way he thought he was agreeing to be banned for life in the deal.
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Bullwinkle

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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:12 pm

Commissioner Rob Manfred announced Monday that he had rejected Rose's plea for reinstatement, citing his continued gambling and evidence that he bet on games when he was playing for the Cincinnati Reds.
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Stick

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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:57 pm

puros_bran wrote:
Google is your friend Stick.. You can find all kind of material on the matter..  Wikipedia goes pretty in depth.  

The gist of the matter is there was never evidence he bet Against the Reds.  Quit the contrary there's evidence he bet on the Reds to win every night.   There's Literally only a handful of games in a 4 year span where there's no proof he placed a bet. But he was betting upwards of $10,000 per day in the 80's, it's possible the records for those days weren't found or  some days he didn't have the money or couldn't make the call for whatever reason.

   When he agreed to the deal to be 'ineligable for baseball' there was a rule that stated he could be reinstated after 12 months.  That rule may or may not still be in effect, I don't know.   But I know there's no way he thought he was agreeing to be banned for life in the deal.

Thanks Peeb, I guess I was just being lazy. Your summary makes the sentence still sound excessive. And he bet for his team to win, not against?! Perhaps there was more to it than the media would have us know?
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JimInks

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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:16 am

First of all, every player knows betting on baseball carries a life time ban. It's posted everywhere in the clubhouse, it's in every contract they sign from rookie league to the majors. They know the consequences, and Pete thought he was above all of that. They have proof Pete bet on baseball while he was a player, something he did not deny when he met with Commissioner Manfred a few months back (he claimed he didn't remember... yeah, uh huh). They have proof Pete manipulated his pitching staff on days he bet on his teams to win. When he didn't bet, he was essentially saying he thought his team couldn't win, which affected the betting on those games.

Think about this: Pete has a lot of money riding on his team to win. If he brings in a pitcher who needs a day off and that guy hurts his arm because Rose doesn't want to lose his bet, that is unforgivable. He saved his best pitchers for the games he bet on, too. That is manipulating the game and gambling with the health and careers of the players who trusted him because of his own personal reasons, not because he wanted his players to win for the good of franchise.

Pete accepted the life time ban rather than admit he gambled. Applying for reinstatement after twelve months was no guarantee that he'd be allowed back. If he thought a life time ban didn't mean a life time ban, then he was stupid. He played with the faith of millions, corrupted the sport, risked the health of his players, and bought shame to baseball for what? Money. He lied and lied and lied for years, and when he did come clean, he did it for book sales as much as anything. 

When he met with Manfred, he denied that he still bet on baseball. Rose didn't know that Manfred had him investigated and confronted Rose with the fact that they had proof he was still betting on baseball. Rose then admitted he had lied. Maybe that betting was legal, but what kind of man would lie like that when he's trying to prove he's truth worthy and deserves being back in the game? How could you expect the commissioner to trust him when he sees that Rose is still betting and still lying... to his face? Not to mention that Rose lied again about not betting when he was a player when he knew darn well Manfred had the proof in front of him. He didn't remember? BS. I don't see anybody giving Rose another chance when he's doing that at such an important meeting.

Pete's been told by four commissioners that he had to reconfigure his life before he could be reinstated. Not once has Pete even tried to do that. That's on him for not doing what was mandated, not Major League Baseball. If he wanted to show he was sincere about doing the right things to rehabilitate himself, he should have had the sense to stop gambling on baseball. Period. He still associates with gambling casinos. He's had chance after chance after chance to fix himself, and he's never once taken the opportunity to do so. I know one thing: if I was in Rose's shoes and screwed up like he did, the last thing I would do is continue to bet on baseball, legally or otherwise. It shows he has not intention of changing. Would you really trust this guy?

Had he sincerely done what was asked of him, he might be in baseball now. He only has himself to blame. And baseball doesn't need this sort of character in the sport on any level. Letting him back in would only serve to weaken the deterrent against gambling. Lenny Dykstra recently said he didn't bet on baseball because he didn't want what happened to Pete to happen to him. That shows me that the ban should never be lifted.  I see no reason to forgive Pete Rose.
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:47 pm

Lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:57 pm

If Cobb, Speaker, Anson, Comisky, Waner, Stengal, Perry, and a list so long I can't list them all without googling up "Cheats, drunks, and Gamblers in the HOF" are in the HOF, then Pete deserves to be there.  

You can't get all high and righteous on Pete and allow those that were far worse than him to remain in... Because that is a lie, just like Pete told.   Either shush up and let Pete in or 'do the right thing' and take those guys out, including removing their names from baseball fields.  As it stands it is complete and utter hypocrisy.

Sanctity of the game my arse.


As far as the 'fixing the game' bullcrap.. Over the four year period he was investigated I think there's 5 games in total that there is no evidence that he bet on the Reds to win.  Hardly the sinister fix you are portraying.
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JimInks

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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:06 pm

puros_bran wrote:
If Cobb, Speaker, Anson, Comisky, Waner, Stengal, Perry, and a list so long I can't list them all without googling up "Cheats, drunks, and Gamblers in the HOF" are in the HOF, then Pete deserves to be there.  

You can't get all high and righteous on Pete and allow those that were far worse than him to remain in... Because that is a lie, just like Pete told.   Either shush up and let Pete in or 'do the right thing' and take those guys out, including removing their names from baseball fields.  As it stands it is complete and utter hypocrisy.

Sanctity of the game my arse.


As far as the 'fixing the game' bullcrap.. Over the four year period he was investigated I think there's 5 games in total that there is no evidence that he bet on the Reds to win.  Hardly the sinister fix you are portraying.

Believe as you will. It's a free country.
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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:36 pm

Jim.
You make some very good points concerning Pete and what has happened to him. The thing most folks forget is that players in professional "sports" are realy in the ENTERTAINMENT BUSINESS!! You have to look at elementary/high school sports to find true sport. By college and subsequently Pro level players have become pay'd entertainers akin to actors and others in the entertainment industries. Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:51 pm

monbla256 wrote:
Jim.
You make some very good points concerning Pete and what has happened to him. The thing most folks forget is that players in professional "sports" are realy in the ENTERTAINMENT BUSINESS!! You have to look at elementary/high school sports to find true sport. By college and subsequently Pro level players have become pay'd entertainers akin to actors and others in the entertainment industries. Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

I wish you were wrong, but I believe the same as you do.
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Dutch

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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:57 pm

puros_bran wrote:
If Cobb, Speaker, Anson, Comisky, Waner, Stengal, Perry, and a list so long I can't list them all without googling up "Cheats, drunks, and Gamblers in the HOF" are in the HOF, then Pete deserves to be there.  

You can't get all high and righteous on Pete and allow those that were far worse than him to remain in... Because that is a lie, just like Pete told.   Either shush up and let Pete in or 'do the right thing' and take those guys out, including removing their names from baseball fields.  As it stands it is complete and utter hypocrisy.

Sanctity of the game my arse.


As far as the 'fixing the game' bullcrap.. Over the four year period he was investigated I think there's 5 games in total that there is no evidence that he bet on the Reds to win.  Hardly the sinister fix you are portraying.

PB, if I were a libby, I would certainly have to insist, that ALL professional athletes found guilty of this offense, be sent to rehab on the MLB, NFL, and NBA's dime, since compulsive gambling is classified as a "disorder," by the Mayo Clinic. It supposedly stimulates the brains reward system, similar to alcohol or drugs.

Now that drugs are part of the discussion, I suppose they could pay for steroid rehab as well.

Then, if said athlete doesn't relapse any more than single digits, we can just chalk the whole thing up to their "disease," which they finally beat.

Once they go into double digits though, we should step back and reevaluate the situation, and see if we can figure out another angle, to give them a few more chances.

Like Michael stated, they are entertainers, and the American public certainly like their entertainment. It's the only industry that never takes a hard financial hit, whether there is a recession, or even a depression.

At least he is still getting to put his name to some product. As much of a gamble as health insurance is, you would think BCBS would have him front and center.
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PostSubject: Re: Remember Pete Rose?   Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:25 pm

Dutch, As I had implied earlier I'm no Big Red Machine fan, and could in many ways not care less about Rose and his ban.  I gave up baseball sometime in the 90's when I realized EVERYONE was on steroids.  

The only thing that gets me about the deal is the "Pete is a cheat, but all the crooked mofos from my team are paragons of virtue" nonsense.
Pete broke the rules, Pete suffers.. Others, many,many,many, others break the rules, and still only Pete suffers.. I say: Ban all the cheats/drunks/murderers/liars/thiefs or get off the high horse.



And for only the second time in history me and Monbla agree on something.. If you want to watch sports go watch tball, and even some of that is iffy. Illegal Recruitment, cheating, and payoffs  is down into the high school levels now.
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