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 If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?

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ZeroContent

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PostSubject: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Mon May 30, 2016 3:37 pm

So I think the general consensus is that vacuum sealing tobacco basically stops the ageing process, or at least slows it to an extreme crawl. Also I believe that latakia degrades after peaking in 5-7 or so. SO, if vacuum sealing basically stops the ageing process would that also stop latakia from degrading as well? Giving that in my lifetime tobacco is probably be just about outlawed in this country and I mostly smoke latakia blends at some point acquiring enough tobacco to last me will be necessary. Assuming I make it as long as my grandparents I still have over 50 years to go. So, if latakia was vacuum seal in glass, how long could it stay viable. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Mon May 30, 2016 5:46 pm

Not that I'm assuming I know anything but, if vacuum sealing stops and or slows down the aging process than would someone like to explain to me how tobacco ages in it's (unopened) tin, which is vacuum sealed BTW? scratch
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Puff Daddy
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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Mon May 30, 2016 6:07 pm

Vacuum sealing is less effective than tinning or jarring because it is less impervious to outside atmosphere. In other words, plastic is not as airtight as metal or glass over the long haul. Also, no form of storage prevents aging or change in the tobacco, as both aerobic and anaerobic change eventually takes place. Bottom line, you have 10 to 12 years before noticeable decline begins take place even in the best scenarios. Sorry, but that's just how it is.

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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Mon May 30, 2016 8:36 pm

So those tins of Murray's Era Nightcap, SM Mild and Medium, and 965 in my cellar are crap now?

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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Mon May 30, 2016 8:40 pm

MisterE wrote:
So those tins of Murray's Era Nightcap, SM Mild and Medium, and 965 in my cellar are crap now?

No, but you'll notice a difference. I've yet to smoke any tobacco a dozen years old or more and not notice a certain weakness in it.

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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Mon May 30, 2016 8:41 pm

ZeroContent wrote:
Giving that in my lifetime tobacco is probably be just about outlawed in this country and I mostly smoke latakia blends at some point acquiring enough tobacco to last me will be necessary. †

I don't think tobacco will ever be outlawed but in time I can see more and more employers going tobacco free or make your health insurance so expensive you have to quit. I was contracted to a tobacco free company that would not hire smokers. One guy told me he got randomly screened at least 4 times a year.
This might be of interest to you. http://www.glpease.com/Articles/vacuum.html Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Mon May 30, 2016 8:43 pm

http://www.glpease.com/Articles/vacuum.html

Edit: Dave beat me to it.

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Old Nate
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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Mon May 30, 2016 11:04 pm

Puff Daddy wrote:
Vacuum sealing is less effective than tinning or jarring because it is less impervious to outside atmosphere. In other words, plastic is not as airtight as metal or glass over the long haul. Also, no form of storage prevents aging or change in the tobacco, as both aerobic and anaerobic change eventually takes place. Bottom line, you have 10 to 12 years before noticeable decline begins take place even in the best scenarios. Sorry, but that's just how it is.

I've read various GL Pease articles and the general consensus from those articles/interviews is Virginia's get better and better no matter how long they age with the most noticeable change occurring in the first 5-6 years.

Is this not true?
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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Tue May 31, 2016 12:55 am

My experience is that Latakia blends do mellow over time, whether or not they are vacuum sealed or not, but it may be the other constituents accept the flavours and the raw power of it is lost. Maybe if just Latakia alone is stored it may keep it's potency?
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ZeroContent

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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Tue May 31, 2016 10:32 am

Puff Daddy wrote:
Vacuum sealing is less effective than tinning or jarring because it is less impervious to outside atmosphere. In other words, plastic is not as airtight as metal or glass over the long haul. Also, no form of storage prevents aging or change in the tobacco, as both aerobic and anaerobic change eventually takes place. Bottom line, you have 10 to 12 years before noticeable decline begins take place even in the best scenarios. Sorry, but that's just how it is.

I think you missed my part of the post that said "in glass".

daveinlax wrote:
ZeroContent wrote:
Giving that in my lifetime tobacco is probably be just about outlawed in this country and I mostly smoke latakia blends at some point acquiring enough tobacco to last me will be necessary. †

I don't think tobacco will ever be outlawed but in time I can see more and more employers †going tobacco free or make your health insurance so expensive you have to quit. I was contracted to a tobacco free company that would not hire smokers. One guy told me he got randomly screened at least 4 times a year.
This might be of interest to you. http://www.glpease.com/Articles/vacuum.html Shocked

Who knows. †Currently Obamacare made it illegal to charge more that 1.5x the rate of a non-tobacco user. †It also defined a tobacco user as anyone who uses tobacco 4 or more times a week. †So technically, according to current law, I am not a tobacco user since I smoke maybe every other day.

The GL Pease article was what I was basing my question on. †Point number 3:

"3. Evacuated mason jars. Tobacco was practically unchanged from the day it was packed. Minor aging only. Different from the plastic-aged samples but (IMO) no worse or better. Note that if you are quick on the switch with the Tilia, you might be able to create jars with only a mild vacuum seal. This would more closely resemble professional "vacuum-packed" tins and might work very well."

So, sounds like the way to preserve the longest would be to fully vacuum seal in jars. †As mentioned the tins that are vacuum sealed are only a light vacuum so that is why they still age.
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Old Nate
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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Tue May 31, 2016 1:24 pm

ZeroContent wrote:
Puff Daddy wrote:
Vacuum sealing is less effective than tinning or jarring because it is less impervious to outside atmosphere. In other words, plastic is not as airtight as metal or glass over the long haul. Also, no form of storage prevents aging or change in the tobacco, as both aerobic and anaerobic change eventually takes place. Bottom line, you have 10 to 12 years before noticeable decline begins take place even in the best scenarios. Sorry, but that's just how it is.

I think you missed my part of the post that said "in glass".

daveinlax wrote:
ZeroContent wrote:
Giving that in my lifetime tobacco is probably be just about outlawed in this country and I mostly smoke latakia blends at some point acquiring enough tobacco to last me will be necessary. †

I don't think tobacco will ever be outlawed but in time I can see more and more employers †going tobacco free or make your health insurance so expensive you have to quit. I was contracted to a tobacco free company that would not hire smokers. One guy told me he got randomly screened at least 4 times a year.
This might be of interest to you. http://www.glpease.com/Articles/vacuum.html Shocked

Who knows. †Currently Obamacare made it illegal to charge more that 1.5x the rate of a non-tobacco user. †It also defined a tobacco user as anyone who uses tobacco 4 or more times a week. †So technically, according to current law, I am not a tobacco user since I smoke maybe every other day.

The GL Pease article was what I was basing my question on. †Point number 3:

"3. Evacuated mason jars. Tobacco was practically unchanged from the day it was packed. Minor aging only. Different from the plastic-aged samples but (IMO) no worse or better. Note that if you are quick on the switch with the Tilia, you might be able to create jars with only a mild vacuum seal. This would more closely resemble professional "vacuum-packed" tins and might work very well."

So, sounds like the way to preserve the longest would be to fully vacuum seal in jars. †As mentioned the tins that are vacuum sealed are only a light vacuum so that is why they still age.

I am by no means an expert, but I was under the impression the best place to age your tobacco is in the tin and the second best place is jars. The aging will take place no matter where you are storing your tobacco for the long haul.
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Tue May 31, 2016 3:16 pm

ZeroContent wrote:


Who knows. †Currently Obamacare made it illegal to charge more that 1.5x the rate of a non-tobacco user. †

I don't know of a single company interpreting it so.. My ex-company, and the others I have spoken to, double and triple the cost.. They do so by claiming the 1.5 x limit is on the insurance side, not what the employee may be charged by the employer.

ie: I paid $20 for Bluecross for myself, the boss lady claimed she paid the rest. A tobacco user had to pay $65 per week for the same coverage. The $45 is Supposedly the difference of the added 50%.

I call bullshit but it isn't pertinent to the argument. The company said they would need to nicotine test me when I returned to work..(they fired me a month later for being unable to perform my duties..)

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ZeroContent

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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Tue May 31, 2016 4:24 pm

puros_bran wrote:
ZeroContent wrote:


Who knows. †Currently Obamacare made it illegal to charge more that 1.5x the rate of a non-tobacco user. †

I don't know of a single company interpreting it so.. My ex-company, and the others I have spoken to, double and triple the cost.. They do so by claiming the 1.5 x limit is on the insurance side, not what the employee may be charged by the employer.

ie: †I paid $20 for Bluecross for myself, the boss lady claimed she paid the rest. A tobacco user had to pay $65 per week for the same coverage. The $45 is Supposedly the difference of the added 50%.

I call bullshit but it isn't pertinent to the argument. †The company said they would need to nicotine test me when I returned to work..(they fired me a month later for being unable to perform my duties..)

It went into effect 2015 so wascit before 2015?
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oldmansmokingpipe

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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Tue May 31, 2016 6:09 pm

Latakia does not age well - it does not hold its strength or depth of aroma or flavor. smoked a 40 yr old bengal slices tin and it was nice to have tried it but the whole tobacco was nothing like when it was fresh.

probably 3-4 yrs ideal some say maybe 7 but it becomes so tame you won't notice the latakia. I am a Lat fiend and i do know that much.
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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Tue May 31, 2016 6:26 pm

yunusmeer wrote:
Latakia does not age well - it does not hold its strength or depth of aroma or flavor. †smoked a 40 yr old bengal slices tin and it was nice to have tried it but the whole tobacco was nothing like when it was fresh.

probably 3-4 yrs ideal some say maybe 7 but it becomes so tame you won't notice the latakia. †I am a Lat fiend and i do know that much.

I think you're missing my question that if vacuum sealed in glass would it extend that time.

According to GLP, tobacco stored in a vacuum seal glass jar showed little signs of ageing after 3 years which sounds to me like at least a 20% ageing speed over 3 years. At that rate it would take 15 years in the vacuum jar to reach the age of a tobacco just put into the jar like normal for 3 years. If lat peaks in 7 years before it starts heading downhill and assuming acceptable quality at 10. Doing out that math, theoretically a lat blend could be be smokeable for 50 years if vacuum sealed in glass, of course, assuming you could maintain the vacuum on the jar. I'm curious if all the assumptions could actually hold true.
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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Tue May 31, 2016 6:32 pm

ZeroContent wrote:
yunusmeer wrote:
Latakia does not age well - it does not hold its strength or depth of aroma or flavor. †smoked a 40 yr old bengal slices tin and it was nice to have tried it but the whole tobacco was nothing like when it was fresh.

probably 3-4 yrs ideal some say maybe 7 but it becomes so tame you won't notice the latakia. †I am a Lat fiend and i do know that much.

I think you're missing my question that if vacuum sealed in glass would it extend that time.

According to GLP, tobacco stored in a vacuum seal glass jar showed little signs of ageing after 3 years which sounds to me like at least a 20% ageing speed over 3 years. †At that rate it would take 15 years in the vacuum jar to reach the age of a tobacco just put into the jar like normal for 3 years. †If lat peaks in 7 years before it starts heading downhill and assuming acceptable quality at 10. †Doing out that math, theoretically a lat blend could be be smokeable for 50 years if vacuum sealed in glass, of course, assuming you could maintain the vacuum on the jar. †I'm curious if all the assumptions could actually hold true.

I think you're missing the point that it's going to age regardless. Those first 5 years are going to age the most, then the natural aging process will slow down, it's not the vacuum sealed jars that slow the aging down.... at least that's how I interpret the process.
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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Tue May 31, 2016 6:47 pm

what 5 years are you talking about? The experiment from the article was 3 years in different storage methods. In a vacuum seal jar basically no ageing occurred.
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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Tue May 31, 2016 7:34 pm

Aging and change does occur. There is no such thing as a way to preserve tobacco so that it will not change at all over anything other than a short time. I have cracked tins of McClelland virginia tobacco that are fresh, have several years and have as much as 20 years. Noticeable change takes place by at least the 5 year mark, mild degredation at about a dozen years. The sweet spot for aging seems to be between 5 and 10 years. You can vacuum seal a vacuum sealed tin or jar and it won't stop or even slow the aging process at all. You're getting honest firsthand experiences from several people, it's the truth. The only way to have good smokeable tobacco 40 years from now is if they're still making tobacco 25 years from now.

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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Tue May 31, 2016 8:44 pm

Puff Daddy - it's Ok it's zero content. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Tue May 31, 2016 11:41 pm

yunusmeer wrote:
Puff Daddy - it's Ok it's zero content. Laughing

Now that there is funny lol!
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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:16 pm

You wouldn't want to vacuum seal tobacco for any great length of time anyway. Eventually, and even sooner than you'd think, the plastic would react and leech into the tobacco, not lending anything positive to the flavor.
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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:38 pm

it all degrades. Lat sooner than many people think. keep in original tin. I have a small mason jar and when i open up 8 oz gaslight 2 sticks go in one jar for daily use and the rest go in another. i take 2 bricks out at a time and restock the empty 8 oz one with another when needed - the new tobacco stays in tins as is till needed.

also yes the ageing stops when you open it - you can get a secondary ageing thing happening but that is not anywhere near the unopened tin. also - for people that jsr for long periods the air messes with it just like in a bottle of wine. or even single malt.
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PostSubject: Re: If Vacuum Sealing Stops Aging Does It Stop Lat Degradation?   Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:06 pm

This is the never-ending debate. Always interesting to hear, though. I take the word of GWP as gospel. My personal experience with tins of 2001 EMP, 965 and Old Dublin is that they tend to get flat after five years. However, even after that they can be resurrected with a little carefully done rehydrating and transfer from tin to glass for a couple of weeks. I also have the Dunhill blends that were bought in bulk in 2001, then immediately moved to vacuum sealed Mason jars. These can be smoked right out of the jar and smoked to great satisfaction. I just had a bowl of 15-year-old EMP in a 50-year-old Mountbatten Prince and it was a rich, tasty smoke. Would it have been better five years ago? Ten? I don't see how as I sit enjoying the smokey, slightly sweet aftertaste. I think tobacco likes to be aged in a cool, dark place. And you have to begin with good stuff. Poor quality leaf isn't going to get better than it was. Another way to restore an aged tin is to mix it with some of the modern version and let it sit for a bit. Well, that's my .02 FWIW.
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