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 WARNING! Radical document...

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Vito

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PostSubject: WARNING! Radical document...   Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:26 am

This was the revolution, boys and girls...not the Constitution.


We have a family tradition; every fourth of July, we read the Declaration to remind us of what we were supposed to have...before the Constitution established a political state that took it away from us.

I mention this for the benefit of all those who still haven't figured out that the only freedom you get from voting is the freedom to choose your own tyrants.

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Puff Daddy
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PostSubject: Re: WARNING! Radical document...   Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:34 am

Happy rebellion day!

Ya know, there's plenty in that document applicable to our present government for a second go-round.

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Richard Burley

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PostSubject: Re: WARNING! Radical document...   Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:09 am

Thomas Paine?
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ftrplt

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PostSubject: Re: WARNING! Radical document...   Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:38 pm

Superb document! Not sure what "Original draft written by Thomas Paine" means. I do believe this magnificent declaration was penned by one Thomas Jefferson of Virginia. Happy 240th, America!! cheers FTRPLT
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Ozark Wizard

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PostSubject: Re: WARNING! Radical document...   Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:59 pm

And to think those men were considered terrorists.......... History seems to be written by the victors.....
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: WARNING! Radical document...   Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:27 pm

Richard Burley wrote:
Thomas Paine?

ftrplt wrote:
Superb document! Not sure what "Original draft written by Thomas Paine" means. I do believe this magnificent declaration was penned by one Thomas Jefferson of Virginia. Happy 240th, America!! cheers FTRPLT

Yeah...I know. The Conventional Wisdom™ says that Jefferson wrote the Declaration. Technically, that's true; he wrote the final draft. But his contributions were editorial and political (as described below). He was not the author.

On June 10, 1776, the Continental Congress appointed Jefferson to head a committee to create a declaration of the colonies on the subject of independence from Great Britain. The committee comprised John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Roger Sherman, and Robert R. Livingston.

Back up for some background. When the first armed conflict between the colonists and the Brits occurred at Concord and Lexington (April 1775), there was no revolution. It was a rebellion, and all the colonists wanted was adequate representation in Parliament. Initially, "No taxation without representation" was their principal concern, but other abuses followed (later enumerated in Common Sense, and then the Declaration of Independence). But in 1775, there was no talk of separation from Britain. The purpose of the rebellion was redress of grievances.

That all changed after January 10, 1776, when Common Sense was published anonymously by Thomas Paine under the name "Cato". No one spoke openly of separation from the Crown before that; it was considered treason to do so. Nevertheless, Common Sense was second only to the Bible in readership in the 13 colonies. It spread like wildfire, and turned the rebellion into a revolution. And Jefferson, Franklin, and Adams all knew that Paine was its author.

So, back to June, 1776...when the committee to create the Declaration had to come up with a document in short order, they turned to Paine. He wasn't an aristocrat (landowner), had no political standing, and wasn't a member of the Continental Congress. He knew he wouldn't be credited, but he didn't care. So he wrote the draft.*
    *Actually, I think he had already been working on it. He had already written the specifications for the Declaration in Common Sense, and much of the content of the Declaration was distilled from more detailed content in Common Sense.
There are two known copies of the original draft: one owned by Adams, and the other by Jefferson. Adams' copy is essentially a "clean copy"—that is, is contains no mark-up. It was the "backup copy". But he didn't write it; there are no workup documents or other drafts in his papers.

Jefferson's copy is identical to Adams' copy, except that it is annotated and edited. But he had no other copy; there are no workup documents or drafts in his papers either. Like Adams, he got his copy from whoever wrote the original draft. As head of the committee, it was his responsibility to produce the final draft document. It was his marked-up content that Hancock transcribed into the finished document that was signed by the members of the Continental Congress.

There is no question that Paine is the original author. Jefferson got the credit, but none of the ideas are his...well, except the changes he made omitting the condemnation of slavery contained in the original draft. (Jefferson was a slave owner, after all. If he were the author, why would he put a condemnation of slavery into the draft in the first place, only to remove it later?) Paine’s prolific writings consistently condemn slavery...and in the same kind of language contained in both the Adams copy and the Jefferson copy of the original draft.

Paine was a Quaker; phrases like "all experience hath shewn" is Quaker-speak; so is the use of capitalized nouns. There is no such language or syntax anywhere in the writings of Thomas Jefferson.

I won’t list all the other evidence here. No single piece of evidence is conclusive on its own. But when you put it all together, it’s clear that Jefferson could not have been the author. If you really want to find out the facts for yourself, try to find a copy of Thomas Paine - Author of the Declaration of Independence, by Joseph Lewis (1947 - out of print). If you can't find one, lemmee know. I know someone who has a few copies to sell.

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Richard Burley

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PostSubject: Re: WARNING! Radical document...   Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:01 pm

Interesting to contemplate, Vito. I'm an admirer of both men, who were good friends, btw. I tend to look at the Revolution for its ideas, rather than its "history." I find the latter a bit boring (who was where, when, and how did that battle turn out?, etc.), having tried reading several "classics" of the era with little success or retention.

The important thing to remember in my opinion is that these were men of the Enlightenment who exalted reason and the individual, and it is no accident that their writings, ideas, and actions were similar or identical. Ergo one could say, in a manner of speaking, that philosopher John Locke was the author of the Declaration of Independence.
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: WARNING! Radical document...   Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:05 pm

Richard:

You're right, of course; Paine was one of the foremost 18th century Enlightenment philosophers, very much in the intellectual flowstream of John Locke. But my attribution of the Declaration's authorship to Paine is not symbolic, or figurative. He wrote it. Directly. His ideas, his pen. Read some of his other works (especially Common Sense), and you will recognize the lion by his claw marks. Wink

Few Americans are aware of the vast body of work Paine created. His Rights of Man, like the Declaration of Independence, Common Sense, and so many of his other works, is just as relevant today as it was in the 18th century (as brothah P.D. astutely noted, above).

Richard Burley wrote:
I tend to look at the Revolution for its ideas, rather than its "history." I find the latter a bit boring (who was where, when, and how did that battle turn out?, etc.)

I agree. The exact dates aren't of special interest to me either, except for purposes of establishing a timeline for the evolution of the underlying ideas.  

For the record, I make a distinction between the Revolution, which was an idea, and the war, which was first a rebellion, and then became the War for Independence. I know that in certain circles it's fashionable to call it the "Revolutionary War", but there's nothing revolutionary about war.

The Revolution was the idea that no man should rule another. Well, they pretty well killed that idea as soon as they created a political state and gave it the power to coerce citizens legally.

I don't really blame the founders; I think they did the best they could at the time, given what they knew. And it worked pretty well for most of the first 200 years or so. While the politicians were busy fighting their little turf wars over who gets to coerce whom, no one knew what the rules of coercion were, so they had to tread carefully. In the meantime, the free enterprise system created a level of prosperity unparalleled in history.

But there's little of that freedom left now. The intrinsic defects of a system based on legalized coercion through the ungoverned growth of legislation are finally coming home to roost. It is an unsustainable system. Government by principle, to the extent that it ever existed unofficially, is now virtually extinct...except where it occurs by accident.

There is no "fixing" it from within the system. The system itself is the problem.

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BriarFox

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PostSubject: Re: WARNING! Radical document...   Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:48 pm

And now it is very apparent that we have an Oligarchy.
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monbla256

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PostSubject: Re: WARNING! Radical document...   Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:04 pm

Ahhh, the good ol days ! But today all that is meaningless in the United CORPORATION of America ! That is mainly used by the corporate folks to assuage the masses and divert their attention from the reality of where they live! Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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AJ

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PostSubject: Re: WARNING! Radical document...   Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:57 pm

"There is no "fixing" it from within the system. The system itself is the problem."

You know Vito, sometimes you make good sense. Now that the problem is identified what's the solution? Smile

AJ
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: WARNING! Radical document...   Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:53 pm

Same thing that happened last time people were suddenly hit with this enlightened problem.

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BriarFox

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PostSubject: Re: WARNING! Radical document...   Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:34 pm

puros_bran wrote:
Same thing that happened last time people were suddenly hit with this enlightened problem.  

Taxation without representation?

Unalienable Rights from our Creator?  

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness?  the liberty part is in question)  

Strike all of that, our elected officials are elected to get rich, expand the power of the Federal Government, and limit the rights of it's citizens.
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AJ

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PostSubject: Re: WARNING! Radical document...   Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:25 am

BriarFox wrote:
puros_bran wrote:
Same thing that happened last time people were suddenly hit with this enlightened problem.  

Taxation without representation?

Unalienable Rights from our Creator?  

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness?  the liberty part is in question)  

Strike all of that, our elected officials are elected to get rich, expand the power of the Federal Government, and limit the rights of it's citizens.  

You are correct and we, knowing this to be true, still elect them to office and gripe because we don't have enough Entitlements. Elected officials respond by increasing the bureaucracy and then raise our taxes to pay for them and the raises they give themselves. Evil or Very Mad

AJ
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: WARNING! Radical document...   Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:12 am

I've never understood why people gripe about an elected officials salary/health insurance/protection/etc.

They don't spend a brillion dollars to get a job that pays $350k with a few benies.

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