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 By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns

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Vito

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PostSubject: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Thu Sep 01, 2016 2:27 am

Read it and weep for 'Merica...


There's no need to make ammunition illegal when you can simply make its ingredients illegal.  5)  

But you see, it's to protect us from the boogeyman...the mythical bad guy whom politicians have used to justify their grabbing for power since time immemorial.

Let's face it; they've already undermined the entire spirit of the Second Amendment. When it was written, "the right to bear arms" meant "the right to have the same firepower as those who otherwise might oppress you"...namely, the state. That was the way the founders wanted it. On purpose.

Well, that's not what we've got. We don't have Abrams tanks, or Stinger missiles, or F-22s. Hell, in the People's Republic of Californicaty, we can't even have a clip that holds more than ten rounds. And thanks to Gov. Moonbeam, come January 1, no one will be able to buy ammunition of any kind without a background check.

Of course, the bad guys don't give a rip about that. They have AK-47s that shoot full auto. The only thing these stupid gun laws do is further disarm citizens who are disinclined to break the law in the first place.

Nevertheless, our "democratically elected leaders" are still trying to create an even more submissive, even more powerless citizenry. They want a nation of sheep, suckling on the state's teat, fully dependent on Uncle Sugar for everything, including how to live every last detail of our lives. And it's all sanctified by The Majority™, which makes it Democracy™, which makes it all right.

(sigh)

When the hell does it end?

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Richard Burley

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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:35 am

Famine, killing fields, or concentration camps--take your pick. That's where it ends, historically. No, wait. You won't have the choice. Silly me.
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:18 am

Richard Burley wrote:
Famine, killing fields, or concentration camps--take your pick. That's where it ends, historically. No, wait. You won't have the choice. Silly me.


Richard: You're right, of course. The kinds of things you mentioned are where it's headed if 'Mericans don't WakeTF up. But if it actually goes there...

...well, is that really what it's going to take to get people to see where their apparently endless capacity to believe that the political state is the answer to all their problems will take them? Because if that's the case, then we're leaving a helluva mess for our children (or their progeny) to clean up.

If it has to go that far for people to see that trying to solve their problems via a system of legalized coercion is a success-proof way of governing their affairs, then we humanoids are a blind and sorry lot indeed.

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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:23 am

I whole heartedly agree with the premise of the OP... But. This is a whoopla over almost absolutely nothing. If we are raising our kalashnikov and stoner weaponry in revolt over "Shall Not Be Infringed" Let's Roll! If we are raising them because the ATF is banning bullets, hold up, read the news letter again.

Some points.
1. It is a newsletter, not a 'notice of intent', 'call for comment', etc.
2. Ammo containing smokeless powder, primers, cases, etc (aka Regular small arms ammo) are exempt from the regulations.
3. What is not exempt is exploding ammo, tracers, etc. The regulations, nor the interpretation changed.
4. The only thing that may present issues for everyday Average joes is surplus tracer ammo, and then only if they do in fact plan to enforce the regulation as written.
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:28 pm

puros_bran wrote:
...2. Ammo containing smokeless powder, primers, cases, etc (aka Regular small arms ammo) are exempt from the regulations...

Right, pb...but only at the point at which they actually become small arms ammo. Read it again:

The article wrote:
...explosive materials used to manufacture ammunition will not be exempt until incorporated into one of the components of ammunition listed in the regulation, including smokeless powder or a complete round of small arms ammunition. Thus, wetted nitrocellulose containing greater than 12.6 percent nitrogen may be lawfully shipped, transported, or received only by persons holding federal explosives licenses or permits. Nitrocellulose must be recorded in records of acquisition in accordance with 27 C.F.R. § 555.123(b). The wetted nitrocellulose must also be recorded in the daily summary of magazine transactions required by 27 C.F.R. 555.127 and stored in storage magazines meeting the construction, tables of distance, and other requirements of storage regulations in 27 C.F.R. Part 555. At the point the nitrocellulose is incorporated into smokeless powder or a complete round of ammunition, it is exempt from the requirements of the record keeping, storage, and other requirements of federal law and regulations.

What they've done is reclassified a primary ingredient (wetted nitrocellulose) as an "explosive", which subjects it to entirely different storage, handling, and documentation procedures...something no one in the ammunition manufacturing industry was prepared for. In one fell swoop, the whole industry has been placed outside the law in its manufacture, storage, shipping, and handling of wetted nitrocellulose.

The article wrote:
Manufacturers and importers of smokeless propellant have relied on ATF private letter rulings issued prior to 2016 stating that nitrocellulose wetted with water not less than 25 percent by mass is not subject to regulation under the federal explosives laws. Accordingly, the manufacturers have set up their logistics, storage and operations consistent with nitrocellulose not being regulated as an explosive...Publication of the change in classification in an industry newsletter without advance notice has left manufacturers scrambling to determine what standards ATF will allow for alternate storage and record keeping and to obtain permits for unlicensed storage vendors. In the meantime, manufacturers and importers are violating federal law, as ATF allowed no grace period for coming into compliance...ATF’s sudden and unexpected change in policy on wetted nitrocellulose will likely have a significant impact on industry’s ability to deliver products to the military and commercial markets.

They've got big-time lawyers dealing with the ATF on this, and I expect that they'll work out some kind of deal that keeps the ammo manufacturers out of jail, but that's not the point. The reason I posted is that this is just one more incremental increase of control, with one more corresponding diminution of liberty.

If they tried to come for our guns all at once, people would freak out. So they nibble away at the right to bear arms one tiny little piece at a time. Each new interference seems too small to bother with. Consequently, even people (like you) who are sensitive to this sort of creeping statism conclude, "This is a whoopla over almost absolutely nothing."

But the "almost" is the key. Hundreds upon thousands of "almosts" add up over time, until one day we find that everything that is not required is forbidden. That's the mentality upon which the rule by legalized coercion is based...

...well, that and the fact that we do not have government by principle. It's government by arbitrary decree. It was supposed to be government by principle; that's what the Constitution was for. But the assault against that has been relentless, most recently under Obamunism. And I don't have to tell you what's coming if "Mrs." Clinton gets on the throne.

And no...I'm not advocating anything like an armed rebellion. Even at this point, it wouldn't take that to stop the madness. But I'm rapidly becoming convinced that The People™ will not wake up in time to do anything until it has gotten so bad that taking guns in hand seems the only option left. That won't succeed. It's already too late for that. They have the F-22s, and we have 10-round clips. Go down that road, and it's game over before it even gets started.

Sorry, amigo...I'm just blowing off steam. This stuff just irritates the hell outa me. They never stop trying to micro-manage every last detail of human activity. Ultimately, that task takes a machine so big that every resource is consumed by the machine itself. It will produce nothing, and collapse under its own weight...yet no one seems able to see that that's exactly where it's headed. It's exasperating.

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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:20 am

Quit reading the article and read the actual 'News Letter' released by the ATF. It's in regard to a question concerning exploding ammo. It has nothing to do with what the article is saying it does.. even if it did pertain to what the article claims it does, remember it is a news letter, not a notice of intent, a call for comment, etc. It's nothing.

Time will tell but I'm 99.9% positive you are reading it incorrectly.
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:24 am

Also, I've been saying it for a decade, Let's Go.. Quit typing and lets do this thing.. and I get crickets. So apparently at the end of the day no one really cares.

This nation was born due to a 3% tax on tea. Now people are screaming for more taxation "on the wealthy" , they just don't read the news and realize that anyone working 40 per will be classified as wealthy. Morons and keyboard commandos.
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:32 am

Here, problem solved, we can all go back to peace time sailing.

http://www.ammoland.com/2016/09/atf-backs-off-on-wetted-nitrocellulose/#axzz4J64Mr9ek
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Carlos
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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:43 am

S&W reported sales are up. Profits are up. Another US Presidential election must be coming up. Wink

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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:21 am

puros_bran wrote:
...I've been saying it for a decade, Let's Go.. Quit typing and lets do this thing...  

...er, let's do WHAT thing?

Maybe I haven't been paying close enough attention, but I don't recall what specific action you're proposing.  confused

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monbla256

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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:47 am

We live in the United CORPORATION of America so what do you expect ? Twisted Evil
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Richard Burley

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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:50 am

Whisky Tango Foxtrot.
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MisterE
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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:12 pm


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bosun1

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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:20 pm

vote for who ever you feel is right for you. you can pick a third grade bully or a congenital liar. The political system has failed us in giving a choice of two candidates, neither of whom I care for. The doctor might have been the pick of the litter but he didn't make it. Bernie stirred people up talking about political corruption but he changed his tune pretty quickly when he lost. Now he is telling his disillusioned followers to vote for the queen of corruption. That and he just picked up a pretty nice summer home some how. Coincidence? I'm picking the bully. Hoping the electronic voting machines don't get hacked so they show Hillary getting 94%$ of the popular vote. And to stick with the OP's posts, Obama says his greatest enemy is Global Warming. Hillary says her greatest enemy is the NRA. Bill of Rights be damned..
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riff raff

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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:44 am

I have a few handguns in Maryland and decided that I need to keep a small pistol in my suitcase. I travel a lot and last week a man and woman were banging on my door at 2:15 Am saying "Jeff, we know you are in there". I assured them I wasn't Jeff and after a while they left (this was in a nice Marriott Courtyard hotel).

Well, buying a handgun in Maryland is way different now than in 2008, my last purchase. Back then, I did an online gun safety course, printed a card, bought the gun, waited 10 days and took it home. Now, that has been replaced with the "Handgun Qualifier License". Four hour training course, you get fingerprinted and complete a lengthy on-line application which activates an background check. $50 for the application, $70 to get fingerprinted and now I'm waiting. The good news is that because of my approve 2008 purchase, I can skip the Four-hour training course (and save $200). Now I'm waiting for approval and the license, then I still wait 10 days to pick it up. The only good news is Maryland dropped the "fired shell casing" requirement for handguns.

Madness.
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:36 pm

I believe there are several purposes behind the increasing restrictions on guns and ammunition:
  • To create an unbridgeable firepower gap between civilians and an increasingly militarized police force that’s sworn to follow orders without hesitation or judgment; that puts the established order in complete control of the citizenry, effectively killing the spirit behind the Second Amendment.
  • To make it so difficult to gain access to even the limited firepower that the state will allow, that most people will just say to hell with it, and resign themselves to docile compliance with whatever the current regime requires or forbids
  • For everyone who’s willing to jump through the hoops and acquire guns anyway, to create a data base of “suspects” who can be targeted in police investigations
  • To have that data base available so they know whom to target when whatever “unusual emergency” they announce justifies “unusual, extraordinary, and temporary” seizure of all registered weapons…for purposes of Public Safety™, you understand.
The idiotic premises underlying that whole approach are:
  1. That police provide all the protection any law abiding citizen would ever need
  2. If guns are illegal, then only people who are clearly NOT law-abiding citizens would even want to own a gun; therefore, they are (by definition) outlaws, and a threat to Public Safety™. Round ‘em up, bring ‘em in, and teach ‘em who’s really in charge in this “democracy”.
Of course, the real bad guys couldn’t care less about gun restrictions. All the laws do is make decent citizens increasingly unable to protect themselves against the fully-armed jerks who don’t care what the laws say.

I’m not a vigilante. In fact, I’m not a violent person at all. But I’m also not an idiot. If someone threatens me or my family with lethal force, he’s going down. Whether you or I or anyone else recognizes it or not, the state is the source of a general trend toward taking away our ability to defend ourselves from coercion by force. They’ve already killed our ability to defend ourselves when the state is the source of that coercion, and now they’re working on killing that same ability where individual bad guys are concerned.

I’m not talking now about the wetted nitrocellulose issue that was the subject of my OP…although I think that’s just more evidence of the general trend. The fact that it went away this time doesn’t change the fact that they’ll try it (and other things like it) again and again and again, any way they can, until they finally just do away with the right to bear arms completely. “Mrs.” Clinton doesn’t even try to hide that part of her agenda. Hell, she’s proud of it.

So, they’re coming for your guns, one way or another. Maybe not right away, but that’s where it’s headed. Agree or disagree, as you like, but it changes nothing. It’s still true, and it’s still happening.

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Ozark Wizard

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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:02 pm

Looking at this, I'm wondering if folks actually equate guns and firepower with strength. Threats are only perceived by the threatened. If firepower was the ultimate strength, then why are third world military dictators holding First World countries by the short hairs?

Guile? Moxy? What?/???

Tea taxes aside, what it took to secede from Mother England was a determination to not play ball with the establishment and prove to be persistent enough to stay separatist. If you don't like the way the game is being played, leave the game. Let the other players take your tokens, etc. Walk away and see who comes along. If enough people leave the game, the game might be over...

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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:20 am

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Vito

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PostSubject: The system is broken   Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:16 pm

DoverPipes wrote:
THIS is how it will happen.........

http://www.alloutdoor.com/2016/08/31/democrats-will-never-confiscate-guns-instead-youll-hand/


Of course, the author admits (see the Update he added at the end of the article) that he’s just trolling and trying to provoke a reaction. So, while he does present a case for how it COULD happen, it’s not at all clear that he actually believes that’s how it WILL happen.

All of which is entirely beside the point. Guns and ammo is only one small part of the interminable erosion of liberty that’s been going on ever since the revolution ended with the ratification of the Constitution.

The point is the out-of-control mentality of those who believe it is the purpose of government to interfere with life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and other property in order to “protect” the same.

More precisely, the point is that the essence of the American Revolution was, “No man should rule another". But that principle that gets stomped into the dirt every time they pass another law that tells you want you can’t do or what you must do.

Still more precisely, government by arbitrary, legalized, institutionalized coercion has always been inherently unstable. It doesn’t matter whether the coercion takes the form of naked force, as it did with King George III who commanded his Redcoats (or King Barack who commands more potent forces), or whether it takes the form of fraud, where you’re taxed to death by your democratically elected “leaders”.

The mentality that it’s OK for them to legally coerce you shatters the principle that no man should rule another, and there goes the ball game. All it takes is enough time, and eventually you end up with a choice between a blustering egomaniac and a pathological liar for President.

The system is broken.

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DoverPipes

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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Sun Sep 04, 2016 6:34 pm

Hypothetical as it may be, I have no illusions that they would use our children as pawns in this scheme if it was to happen. When school teachers and administrators started asking children if their parents owned firearms, it was clear what they were trying to set up. Same goes for Pediatricians asking these type of questions to my child and my Wife right after Sandy Hook. I told my Wife never to answer those type of questions EVER. Nobody's business except mine as to what and how many guns I own. That's coming from a "Badge Carrier".....
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:41 pm

DoverPipes wrote:
Hypothetical as it may be, I have no illusions that they would use our children as pawns in this scheme if it was to happen...

DoverPipes: I think you mean you have no illusions that they wouldn't use our children as pawns...and frankly, I agree. When the worst of them get desperate to "prove" how justified they are in taking complete control of people's lives, I doubt there's anything they won't do. The most dangerous people are always irrevocably convinced that they're right, and that the ends justify the means.

At least one of them is running for President now. The other one...I dunno; he's a wild card. He scares me only a little less than his compulsively prevaricating opponent.

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LL

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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:56 pm

Dear Board Young'uns:

Pay attention to this Vito guy. He's seen & experienced a lot, is ridiculously smart, is absurdly well informed, and is a high-level synthetic thinker (not just an analyst).

Dear Board Old Guys:

Keep giving Vito a hard time (in the intellectual sense). His best stuff comes out when he feels truly engaged.

Cool
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:26 am

Howdy LL. Shit damn...now we've got someone to keep us ALL on our toes! cheers



p.s. I mean, besides PeeBee.
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bosun1

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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:09 pm

Using our children? Brain washing our children? Why do you think they expel/suspend a kid for nibbling his pop tart into the shape of a pistol? Same for pointing your index finger and putting your thumb up and saying "bang". OOO guns are bad! Look what happened to Tommy when he said "bang"! I grew up when a lot of people hunted, a 22 single shot rifle was a great Christmas present (HEY he said CHRISTMAS! My rights are being trampled!!) ,could take your shotgun to school for some after school hunting, walk through town with an unloaded shotgun over my shoulder. Now its swat team, 5 o'clock news, and lock downs. Now guns are evil, ergo any one with a gun is evil. Don't trust the police because they have guns and kill people. Don't trust the military because they have guns and kill people. Nice country we're getting here..
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PostSubject: Re: By Hook or Crook, they are coming after our guns   Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:46 pm

When are you folks gonna stop with this "we the people" fantasy? This is no longer the United States of America and hasn't been for decades. It is the United CORPORATION of America and does what BUSINESS want's!! They keep up the myth that it is YOUR country and YOU have something to say but it's not been that way and they work real hard to keep it that way !! Twisted Evil Onward with the CORPORATION !!! Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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