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 This Brit predicted it...

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Jevverrett

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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:50 pm

I would just like to say that I believe there is still some hope in the world. The idea that personal responsibility and morality is the key to a happy life is not limited to a narrow margin of the population. I believe it, and I raise my children to believe it too. It's backed up with them in their Sunday school, and it's what my family lives daily. It's true that we stand out some amongst our peers in the world, but not for any bad reason.

Even though I don't believe it will make a difference bc I live in ct, I am voting for trump. The real point that I see in all this has less to do with who becomes our next president, as it does who that person appoints to fill the vacant Supreme Court seat. Presidents change constantly, that seat is for life, and does hold real power in this country.
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:31 am

Stick wrote:
...what decisions were made by whom that led to the two bounders making it to the final two?


Stick: It's not so much a matter of what the decisions were and who made them as it is a matter of what assumptions engendered those decisions. But I won't dodge your questions, although I'm certain most folks won't like the answers.

The decisions were made by the people who framed the Constitution, when they chose to create a system of artificial, arbitrary laws enforced by coercion (or the threat thereof), based on the assumption that such a system could serve the purpose of government as it is defined in the Declaration of Independence. That assumption is utterly false.

It's actually a far more insidious, pernicious, and ubiquitous assumption than it sounds; the belief in that assumption is virtually universal. To challenge it is tantamount to heresy...no, wait ó it actually is heresy, because the assumption is a fundamental tenet of the most popular religion on the planet.

That religion is not Christianity, not Islam, not Hinduism, not Marxism, and not even atheism. The most popular religion on the planet is politics ó the belief that the only possible form of government is one that is administered by some form of state, an entity whose power is based on legalized coercion, and that holds the ultimate authority over the lives and property of its subjects, constituents, citizens...whatever you want to call them.

I call them victims.

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Richard Burley

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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:38 am

So--correct me if I'm wrong--the "answer" to some unstated question on this thread is anarchy, and the Founders were naive, if not hallucinating fools? That it?
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:42 pm

Richard Burley wrote:
So--correct me if I'm wrong--the "answer" to some unstated question on this thread is anarchy, and the Founders were naive, if not hallucinating fools? That it?

Richard: Nope...thatís not it, amigo; not even close. You stand corrected. Glad to oblige. †
________

First let me say that Iíve been reading your posts for years, and as far as I can tell, if you and I were sitting down over a bowl oíweed and yakking in face time, weíd prolly find that our core beliefs mostly coincide. So, if I were a political animal, Iíd most likely be on your side. Iím sure as hell not your enemy, nor do I advocate the overthrow of the Constitution.

Next, please consider everything Iíve said. Iíve explicitly said that I donít blame the Founders, and that they couldnít know what their republic was going to become. I believe they did the best they could under very difficult circumstances. They were breaking new ground, trying something that had never been done before. And who said anything about hallucinating fools (except you)? Nothing Iíve said even implies that. In fact, the best of them were products of the Age of Enlightenment, and many were familiar with and influenced by the works of Bacon, Spinoza, Locke, and Dťscartes. Hardly fools.

But that doesnít change my answer to Stickís question, the context and essence of which is, ďWell, if the Declaration of Independence was right, then at what point did everything turn around and set us on the path that brought us to the point wherein we have a system that brings the worst of us to the top?Ē At least, thatís what I believe he was asking. Iím sure heíll correct me if Iím wrong. †Wink

And Iím sure you will too; so, correct me if Iím wrong, but you seem to be among the vast body of people who believe that no form of government could possibly be better than the one we have now, and anyone who says otherwise must be a monarchist, a totalitarian, or worst of all, an anarchist. Actually, Iím none of those.

In fact, not only donít I believe that we have the best possible form of government, I have explicitly said that what we have now is not government. Evidently, you donít know what I mean by that, or you wouldnít presume that I want no government at all, just because I condemn the current fiasco. Everything Iíve said is anchored in the principles of the Declaration. It does not advocate anarchy, and neither do I. It advocates government that protects the unalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and so do I.

Howís that working out for you under the current system? It seems to me that if we keep going the way we're going, we're going to get to anarchy soon enough without any help from anyone but the politicians who are dragging civilization down by the throat. If that were not the case, we probably wouldnít be having this conversation.

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Stick

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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:15 pm

Vito wrote:
Richard Burley wrote:
So--correct me if I'm wrong--the "answer" to some unstated question on this thread is anarchy, and the Founders were naive, if not hallucinating fools? That it?

Richard: Nope...thatís not it, amigo; not even close. You stand corrected. Glad to oblige. †
________



then at what point did everything turn around and set us on the path that brought us to the point wherein we have a system that brings the worst of us to the top?Ē[/color] At least, thatís what I believe he was asking. Iím sure heíll correct me if Iím wrong. †Wink


Yup, that was pretty much it.
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:03 pm

Stick wrote:
Vito wrote:
...then at what point did everything turn around and set us on the path that brought us to the point wherein we have a system that brings the worst of us to the top?Ē At least, thatís what I believe he was asking. Iím sure heíll correct me if Iím wrong. †Wink

Yup, that was pretty much it.
Thanks for keeping me honest, Stick.

Truth be told, I usually know exactly what you mean. You're a pretty straight shootin' fellow.

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Stick

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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:15 pm

Vito wrote:
Stick wrote:
Vito wrote:
...then at what point did everything turn around and set us on the path that brought us to the point wherein we have a system that brings the worst of us to the top?Ē At least, thatís what I believe he was asking. Iím sure heíll correct me if Iím wrong. †Wink

Yup, that was pretty much it.
Thanks for keeping me honest, Stick.

Truth be told, I usually know exactly what you mean. You're a pretty straight shootin' fellow.


Thanks old bean. That's good to hear. Very Happy
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:00 am

Wait, did someone think Vito had a sense of humor earlier in the thread?
He doesn't, I can attest to that.. I can not get him to laugh even when we are both on drugs. And sarcasm is way too lost on him. Damn shame too, I really thought he was going place in life.
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:42 am

Then it's agreed: I'm hopeless.

Perhaps that explains why I feel right at home here. Twisted Evil

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Richard Burley

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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:24 pm

Vito wrote:
...so, correct me if Iím wrong, but you seem to be among the vast body of people who believe that no form of government could possibly be better than the one we have now, and anyone who says otherwise must be a monarchist, a totalitarian, or worst of all, an anarchist.

OK. You're wrong. That's a howler, Vito! lol!

Seriously, I do think you were giving the Founders short shrift. They knew very well what the republic could become, as you may be aware if you've read any of their correspondence and other ancillary writings. What this "government" has become is exactly what they warned against, an unrestrained democracy, put there by an uneducated populace, vulnerable to any mob master assuming control by vote. The typical Americano doesn't know scheiss from Shinola about anything. The founding documents were written to set up a constitutional republic, and they knew even then it was vulnerable. "A republic if you can keep it," in the words of Franklin at the convention. It's not the documents that are defective, it's us. So we do indeed agree on many things, Vitostein. I think.

What I found most interesting on this thread is the absence of a single acknowledgement of the original post, namely the threat to free speech. Let me say, without free speech, we're lost. FREE, free speech. The right to say anything, including yelling Fire! in a theater--if you like civil lawsuits. The only alternative is violence, which means the most guns win, right or wrong. "That's hardly a radical viewpoint in America, Rick, you prick." Well, yes it is. There are too many "I'm-for-free-speech, but..." types walking about, and it's not opinion, but fact.
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Vito

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PostSubject: Why you're not wrong   Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:38 pm

Rick: Well, that makes more sense. At least now I understand that this is yet another case of apparent discord, when the real source of disagreement is the fact that we are talking about different things, but calling them by the same name. Such semantic imprecision is the source of much conflict. I'm fessing up to my part in the mess. Translation: You're not wrong, and I'm not either. But I'll take your part first. If I'm wrong about why you're not wrong, I trust you'll straighten me out. Wink

Why you're not wrong Ė I know perfectly well that the Founders knew of the dangers of direct democracy. I also know that "democracy" has become a sanctified shibboleth that actually stands for little more than mob ruleóthe tyranny of the majority over the minority. Or in the case of Pat Condell's point in the OP video, it's the reverse ó the tyranny of a small but malicious minority trying to force everyone else to conform to their ideology through the criminalization of the "offensive" speech.

The manipulation of speech is simply the outward manifestation of this insidious attack on freedom. Their real, underlying goal is the manipulation of the thoughts and ideas that the forbidden speech expresses, and their means to that end is the political process that makes laws against "hate speech", "blasphemy", and anything else that offends the fragile sensibilities of the poor, oppressed whiners who clamor for them.

Evidently, they have so little self-esteem and so little psycho-emotional security about their beliefs that they need the state to turn the whole of society into a safe little bubble to protect their world-view. It's as though legislating politically correct speech and behavior somehow sanctifies it with the presumably irreproachable imprimatur of Democracyô.

There's precedent for that kind of upside down thinking. It was cast in iron above the gates at Auschwitz: Arbeit macht frei ("Work makes you free")...and in a sense it was true. Ultimately it freed the thousands who were its victims of their very existence.

You're not wrong that the Founders presumed their republic would be populated by educated, literate citizens who knew how to reason, and thus would be able to connect the dots between laws that incrementally encroach upon their freedoms and the tyranny that cumulatively results from such insanity. Obviously, the morons (and their numbers are legion) who say, "I'm for free speech, BUT..." have lost that reasoning ability...if they ever had it in the first place, which I doubt.

So, yeah...in the sense that the Founders intended something very different to happen when they framed the Constitution, you're not wrong. What you were wrong about is the presumption that I think they were a bunch of "hallucinating fools" for not realizing that the system they created would morph into the current mess. I think no such thing.

Anyhow, the semantic confusion that I mentioned at the head of this post is this: We mean different things by "the system". You mean (at least, I think you do) "the system as the founders intended it to work". I should have recognized that and accommodated it. Conversely, when I say "the system", I mean "the system the way it actually ended up working".

Actually, I did anticipate that someone would object...remember? I said:
Vito wrote:
...I won't dodge your questions, although I'm certain most folks won't like the answers.

...by which I meant that there would be folks who didn't understand what I meant, even though I tried my best to exculpate the Founders. But I didn't make it clear that the mess we have now was clearly not part of their intent, so in that sense I understand why you think I gave them short shrift. My bad.

Anyhow, that's why I think you're not wrong. I have to stop writing now. If you want to take a stab at why I'm not wrong, go for it. Otherwise, I'll come back with clarification on that point when I get a round tuit.

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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:25 pm

See.
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LL

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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:16 pm

Humans haven't changed a bit, of course. †

The new force in the equation is (effectively) instantaneous communication between (pretty much) anyone who wants it, and (pretty much) the rest of the world.

The 21st century is simply the Writ Large version of what was---until recently---only seen occasionally at Home Owners Association meetings, in checkout-stand tabloid newspapers, and in "entertainments" like The Jerry Springer Show †i.e. shameless feasting upon spectacles of †greed, self-interest, hubris, ruthlessness, dishonesty, and so forth, and the Torches and Pitchforks response when groups with opposing views come into contact. †

In short, bitching, moaning whining, lying, claiming and counter-claiming, accusations, and Being Offended By Something ad nauseam now occurs on a vast scale on an hourly basis, courtesy of social networking.

Combine that with Man's tribal instincts, and his bottomless capacity to believe outrageous things to be true without a shred of supporting evidence when it suits them, and you have one royal clusterfuck indeed.
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:08 pm

Ah!!! And there it is. The tribe. Not only the most basic of human society, but also the only one that truly works.
When my survival and comfort are tied directly into your survival and comfort, I am going to be highly motivated to keep you alive and comfortable. The End.

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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:21 pm

puros_bran wrote:
...Vote early, vote often, give all your dead kinfolk a ride to the polls..they ARE going to vote, they might as well be there.


I don't think "Mrs." Clinton is going to appreciate your giving away the secret of her election strategy, pb. Twisted Evil

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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:01 am

Speaking so ill of the future Madam President has been known to lead people to commit suicide, in a park, at night, with 3 shots to the back of the head... Or as I like to call it, Vince Fostered.
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:45 am

Funny how Vince Fostering seems to correlate so closely with proximity to the Madam (great name for her, by the way) and her nefarious shenanigans...but it's prolly just a coincidence. Nothing to see here, folks. Just move along now. This way to the bread and circuses...

Meanwhile, there's hope, pb. I know one woman who used to be a staunch supporter of the Madam, so much so that at one point she called her a "saint". (She is otherwise a very intelligent person, but that's not an uncommon phenomenon over on the left hand path.)

Anyhow, at some point, she saw through the lies. Then she moved even further left and became a Bernie fan. And then the Madam "stole the nomination from Bernie" (her words). She's livid, and she will do anything to keep the Madam off the throne, even the unthinkable. She's going to vote for Mr. Trump.

Jeez...now that I think about it, I'd better warn her to be careful she doesn't get Vince Fostered. affraid

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monbla256

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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:26 am

Just elect Donald, he'll fix it all and make Amurica GREAT again !! Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:36 am

Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Didn't score well in reading comprehension.
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:11 am

puros_bran wrote:
Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Didn't score well in reading comprehension.


See...now THAT got a guffaw outa me.

But we must consider other possibilities. Maybe he thought this thread exists in a different universe, and what didn't work over there would work over here. Or maybe that was just too long ago and he forgot by now. Or maybe he figured we would forget by now. Or maybe he was possessed by Evil Space Aliens and they forgot by now, or...

...nah...after a nice shave with Occam's Razor, I'll go with the reading comprehension thang.

Actually, that explains a lot.†

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Richard Burley

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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:54 pm

The initial dependent clause of your signature might explain it better, Vito. Wink
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: This Brit predicted it...   Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:52 pm

Excellent point, Rick.

Oh wait...is that too judgmental?

Too bad. †Twisted Evil

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