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 Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?

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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:05 pm

I completely agree with the 357 remark.
I have a 50yard shooting range in the back yard. It comes in handy.
I'm not ancient of days by any measure, well any measure that doesn't include teenagers....but I did start daily carrying in the early 80's.
No idea how many rounds I've put down range. I load about 500 or so rounds per month, but there are two of us that regularly shoot out of the pile.

If you reload any at all Sages Reloading Supply is where it's at. He has a webpage and a facebook presence He puts "Combo Packs" on sale pretty regularly.

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AdamCordray

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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:17 pm

Wow this topic has generated a lot of discussion over the past hour or so!
A few things jumped out at me when reading through, and much of this is my personal feelings or opinion on the matter.

I'm a little hesitant to use a Kel-Tec as any daily carry or personal defense weapon given their reputation... they make some nice guns but when reliability is an issue, it's not my carry weapon. As an aside, I would probably shy away from rim-fire for daily carry as well, but thats completely personal choice. In my opinion, personal defense = no compromise.

Probably the most important person/persons to include in this discussion is the people who will actually be carrying the guns... If they're not comfortable with a gun or cartridge power, then they're less likely to carry it or be confident when it counts. I agree they should shoot as many different guns and calibers as possible before they make a decision with you. Perhaps the first thing to decide is the platform, either revolver or semi-automatic, as this will dictate much of the conversation that follows in regards to size, capacity, and caliber. How complicated do they want their firearm to be? If they're comfortable with the loading/unloading and operating the slide of most modern semiautomatics then this shouldn't be an issue. Safety mechanisms (or the "illusion of safety mechanism") is a whole different topic, and may not even be part of the discussion if California requires the firearm to have a safety.

I like Scottie's weapon of choice, the SW 637. Simple, reliable, rock solid reputation, powerful personal defense cartridge (and flexible firepower given the option to use +P).



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huffelpuff

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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:21 am

One of my best friends in the RW was an NYC cop for 40 years. He always said that he's seen huge guys hit in nonleathal areas with 22s drop like a fly and die and little guys take 12 from a 45 most of them center mass and not have it even phase them. Lots of it is how the attacker sees what is happening and their preconceived notions of what happens when you're shot. On that note if you don't want to deal with the possible feeding issues of the 22WMR don't rule out the .25acp. With practice they are great reliable little guns. Also where I'm at you're more likely to find 25acp than any 22 ammo ever. Nothing wrong with revolvers either. Just don't expect them to ever enjoy shooting a 357mag in a 2" snubbie. Stick to a 38 if you do a revolver. Just some thoughts.

Jim
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DoverPipes

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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:47 am

Kel-Tec would not be my choice for personal defense weapon.
I would look at a nice airweight S&W revolver or a Taurus Titanium.

I carry a Taurus 850 Titanium 5 shot revolver in my front pocket in the warmer months. I specifically mix up the loads with Hornady XTP, Hornady Critical Defense, and Glaser Safety Slug "Silver". I carry Bianchi Speed Strips in a pouch that looks like a small cell phone holder. The whole package weighs next to nothing and I have more than enough ammo on me "to get out of dodge". Otherwise, it's an HK P-2000 .40 S&W (Duty Gun), Kimber Pro-Carry .45 ACP, or Glock 26 9mm.

If they are into semi-autos, take a look at Springfiels XD single stack  or Walther PPS (Mod 1 or Mod 2 is the latest version) 1" thick!!!! 9mm or .40 S&W should be more than adequate.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/products/xd-s-3-3-9-mm/

http://www.waltherarms.com/handguns/pps/

Look at CDNN for great prices: https://www.cdnnsports.com/firearms.html#category_2=FIREARMS%2FHANDGUNS
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:56 pm

Time for a re-focus...

Vito wrote:
...they both like the Sig Sauer P230...Neither was able to hold the 9mm Beretta Model 92FS firmly enough to keep it from jamming on the reload, so I think .380 ACP is probably their best shot...


After a great deal of consideration (and given the fact that they already like the Sig Sauer P230, and can fire it with reasonable accuracy), I believe that .380 ACP is where we should be looking. And, notwithstanding the fact that any semi-auto can jam, not all semi-autos are created equal. I've never had a jam on my P230, and neither Mrs. Vito nor the kids were able to get the gun to jam on the shooting range. Translation: The overwhelming probability is that a well-maintained high-quality semi-auto with the right ammo is going to work when needed.

Thanks to all for your suggestions, but I didn't mean to turn this into a "caliber wars" debate, or a venue for everyone posting their personal preferences. If you aren't a woman who can't accurately fire anything over .380 ACP without the gun jamming, what works for you isn't necessarily going to work for the girls.  

I'm operating on the premise that that largest caliber weapon that my kids can fire accurately and reliably will be the most effective. They've already demonstrated that the .380 ACP hits that sweet spot. I tried to make that clear in my OP. Sorry if I didn't communicate that effectively.

"Accurately and reliably" narrows the field quite a bit. For example, the Beretta Pico (for all its many virtues) is off the table. It would be an unwise choice as a first gun for an inexperienced shooter who doesn't have the wrist strength to hold a 9mm semi-auto firmly enough to keep it from jamming. Sure...the Pico is .380 ACP, but it's too light for accurate shooting (for them)...plus it has had reliability (jamming) issues.

PeeBee's recommendation of the Bersa Thunder 380 (and 380 CC) are the front runners at this point. We're going to check them out on the range this weekend.

Thanks again to all for your replies...all of which I know were meant to be helpful.

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DoverPipes

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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:31 pm

Vito wrote:

PeeBee's recommendation of the Bersa Thunder 380 (and 380 CC) are the front runners at this point. We're going to check them out on the range this weekend.

Or this......
https://www.cdnnsports.com/beretta-pico-380-inox.html?___SID=U

Hickok45 Review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XjYtISS08U
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:27 pm

DoverPipes wrote:

Or this......
https://www.cdnnsports.com/beretta-pico-380-inox.html?___SID=U

Hickok45 Review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XjYtISS08U

Brothah DP: I guess you didn't read my entire post:
Vito wrote:
For example, the Beretta Pico (for all its many virtues) is off the table. It would be an unwise choice as a first gun for an inexperienced shooter who doesn't have the wrist strength to hold a 9mm semi-auto firmly enough to keep it from jamming. Sure...the Pico is .380 ACP, but it's too light for accurate shooting (for them)...plus it has had reliability (jamming) issues.


In fact, it was Hickok45's excellent review of the Beretta Pico that convinced me it is NOT a good choice. The shallow serrations on the slide made it difficult for him to operate (did you notice that he grunted almost every time he tried to operate the slide?), and I suspect his hand strength is greater than that of my daughters.

He explicitly says that the Pico is an engineering marvel for its size, but he's just as clear in his opinion that it's for experienced shooters, not novices.

My kids watched the video with me last night. I would have advised them against the Pico had they liked what they saw, but they both said "Nope..." without any prompting from me. Their vote counts most.

They also watched these videos (thanks PeeBee!):

Bersa Thunder 380 acp Pistol - YouTube

Bersa Thunder Concealed Carry - YouTube

...hence they're our leading contenders at this point.

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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:39 pm

Of note: You can't tell it from the videos but Hickock is a giant. Here's him and his boy with a couple of fine folk.
If he or his son Jon can't rack it, I can't rack it. Lol
image upload no size limit

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DoverPipes

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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:46 pm

Bruddah Vito: I did read the entire post. The video was filmed before Beretta made improvements to the trigger & slide.

http://www.beretta.com/en-us/pico-upgrade/

Choice is obviously yours to make. The price point was the main reason for my reply.......

If money is no object, buy a Seecamp.
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:02 pm

Brothah DP: Thanks for your reply and correction. My apologies, amigo. My ignorance of the timing of Hickok45's video and any design changes Beretta has made in the Pico is proof of my lack of familiarity with all things gunular. I'm way out of my depth in the domain of guns and ammo, hence my posting here.

If you have direct experience with the Beretta Pico, that trumps all my second-hand knowledge. So, maybe you can advise me on these questions:
  • Do the changes in the slide make it easier to pull back?
  • If so, wouldn't that be (partly) the result of a softer spring (not as stiff)?
  • If so, wouldn't that increase the recoil and the tendency of the muzzle to rise upon discharge, thereby decreasing accuracy?
You can probably see what my concern is. The right gun for my kids is going to have to accommodate their lack of wrist strength.

That's why I thought .22WMR would be great if someone built a reliable one, but it appears that "rimfire" and "reliable semi-auto" are mutually exclusive, from what I've been able to tell.

I'm not really looking for the smallest, lightest gun at this point. I'm looking for something that's as small yet as powerful as possible while still enabling them to shoot comfortably and hit what they're aiming at. For them, I think that probably means a .380 ACP piece that's got a bit more mass than the Pico...but it wouldn't hurt to try one if we can find a range that has one.

Thanks again for your reply, bro'.

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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:39 pm

I'd double down on a Seecamp in a heartbeat.  I'd also grab that NAA Guardian in 32 ACP.  

When I'm having extremely painful legs I'll slip my NAA 22lr in my pocket.(the middle gun) They are basically shoot them in the face get-off-me guns.
But they do/did make a longer barreled 22WMR I forgot about until just now.
Second one from the bottom.  Longer but thinner than a S&W 442.  
Something else I thought of. If these are bump in the night guns grab an old S&W Model 10 or a S&W Model 1905 (later called the victory model, then becoming the model 10) and load it with medium power Semi-wadcutters. Recoil is very manageable, on par with my 380
image hosting 30 mb

Yes I know it's pretty much settled but I really enjoy talking guns. Lol

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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:24 pm

Maybe it's sorta close to being settled for the kids...

...but then there's Vito's GAD to consider. (Did I just spawn a new BoB acronym?)

Me want more gun! Twisted Evil

What I really want is a Snake Slayer (.410). Naturally, they're illegal in Gov. Moonbeam's Soviet Socialist Republik of Kalifornicaty.  

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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:30 pm

Move?

Bond Arms is a top notch company. The cool thing is you can slap different caliber barrels on them. They are kinda like miniature Thompson/Center Contenders.

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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:59 pm

puros_bran wrote:
Move?


We're considering it.

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DoverPipes

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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:00 pm

Vito: I have no direct, hands on experience with the improved Pico.
I know a few people who have owned them as back up guns. They seemed to be happy with them.

As with most things, it's a matter of personal preference. i also mentioned the Springfield and Walther. Those are two that I have fired and was impressed by both, but then again, that's me.

I would find a range that will let your Daughters test fire their choices before buying. The gun won't do them any good if they aren't comfortable using it / carrying it.

I also stress the proper selection of ammo for these guns. As the .380 is not a .45 ACP, you can find ammo that provides devastating stopping / knockdown power for the diminutive .380 round.

What about a Glock 42 in .380???? Have you thought about that model yet?
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Vito

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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:06 pm

DoverPipes wrote:
...What about a Glock 42 in .380???? Have you thought about that model yet?


Yeah...they've already shot some Glocks. They didn't like them.

I appreciate your inputs, amigo, and I fully agree that they need to be comfortable and proficient with whatever they use. It won't do them much good if they're not.

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DoverPipes

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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:16 pm

Vito: Not a huge fan of the Glock trigger either. That's why I don't carry my G26 on a regular basis.

Curious to see what they pick.
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:46 pm

Bro Dover. Mind sharing what you do carry?
The Walther and Springfield were good suggestions. This is almost funny considering your comment. I had an XDs 9mm that I really liked but I lost it in a trade deal to secure the Mrs Walther. Lol. I've considered a Range Officer.

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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:43 pm

OK, I see some progress has been made in a general direction. Just wanted to drop my two cents as another female on the board.

I have 3 guns I rotate for carrying depending on my outfit/backpack options. I'm 5'3 and 135 pounds with hands tinier than Trump... So this is what I have.

Smallest: Smith & Wesson Bodyguard .380. Not my favorite because the trigger pressure is pretty tough and as I said, I have tiny hands. BUT this is my wife's FAVORITE. She has much stronger wrists from working at a factory and it's like nothing to her. Easy to hide. We use an in-the-pants holster. It's her usual everyday carry and she is 5'5 and 125 pounds.

Medium: Walther P22. This gun is so much FUN. Ammo is inexpensive. Fits in my hand like a glove. Stopping power isn't the worry. As my CWP instructor said, "Oh! Lot's of people have died from .22!" when I brought up that I know most people carry a bigger caliber. Don't carry it everyday because I upgraded...

Largest (that isn't that large): Walther CCP 9mm. The wife bought me this one after I decided I didn't love the .380 as much as I thought I did. What a dream! The trigger pull is easy. Still fits in my hand like a sexy, deadly gun. Use an in the pants holster with the one as well but it mostly rides in my backpack every day.

Let the girls feel them out. Have them try in the pants holster, appendix carry, lower back carry, etc. As I believe it has been mentioned, the important part is to be comfortable with it regardless of caliber. It took me awhile to get used to having a gun on my back (squatting instead of bending over, sitting comfortably, etc.). Get 'em comfortable and keep 'em safe Smile
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puros_bran
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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:57 pm

kaitlyn3837 wrote:
OK,
Lower back carry.. It took me awhile to get used to having a gun on my back

My caring outweighs my reluctance to be THAT GUY.
Carrying small of back is an absolute No-No. You are one hard shove, motorcycle wreck, wrestling match, trip, from riding a wheel chair for the rest of your life.
Whoever invented SOB needs to be shot in the kneecaps.
Your spine is tough but it's absolutely no match for a chunk of steel tucked tightly against it.

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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:17 am

Back in the mid 80's I taught a women's self-defense, shooting, course. For a woman who is not going to shoot regularly I always go with a small frame 38 (hammerless). Some of the new ones are quite light. "Light" can be problematic---recoil. I go with Glasers--reduces recoil. More importantly, how are they going to carry? Once the decision has been made to carry--it has to be a FULL TIME thing. So, buy a good gun purse. They are not cheap, but they give you a solid pocket for the gun...and only the gun. Teach her a "rock steady" firing position...extend the purse (hand around the gun), touch him with the purse and pull the trigger. He can't defend what he can't see.
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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:49 pm

puros_bran wrote:
Bro Dover. Mind sharing what you do carry?
The Walther and Springfield were good suggestions.  This is almost funny considering your comment. I had an XDs 9mm that I really liked but I lost it in a trade deal to secure the Mrs Walther. Lol.  I've considered a Range Officer.

My daily carry is usually a Kimber Pro-Carry that has been improved with a Wilson Combat Flat Wire Spring and Guide Rod Kit, Wilson Combat Titanium Firing Pin, and trigger polish job.

I also carry the aforementioned Taurus Titanium 850 CIA .38 Spl.

I rarely carry my issued HK P-2000 .40 S&W. Never was a huge fan of that model, but I am forced to carry it at work. I am on my fifth one as I type this. With the amount of rounds that I put through it, the gun doesn't hold up. They are notorious for having the trigger packs "go South" w/o warning. We have also seen the area underneath the barrel, crack for no apparent reason.  That's why I don't carry it all day. I know, sounds stupid that they would give me a POS to carry at work, but that's the Government, low bid & BS quality control.

I am looking at picking up a Walther PPX in .40 S&W and get rid of my S&W Sigma 40F. The Glock 26 is a closet gun at the moment for no real reason other than I don't like the trigger action on it.

puros_bran wrote:
kaitlyn3837 wrote:
OK,
Lower back carry.. It took me awhile to get used to having a gun on my back  

My caring outweighs my reluctance to be THAT GUY.
Carrying small of back is an absolute No-No. You are one hard shove, motorcycle wreck, wrestling match, trip, from riding a wheel chair for the rest of your life.  
Whoever invented SOB needs to be shot in the kneecaps.
Your spine is tough but it's absolutely no match for a chunk of steel tucked tightly against it.

The most useless & dangerous way to carry is in the SOB. Most people can't successfully protect the weapon or access it, when it is in an SOB holster.  As you stated PB, I also wouldn't want a hunk of metal pressing into my spine either.
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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:58 pm

It would be hard to beat a Sig P320 compact. I'm also a fan of the Beretta px4. But, if i had college age girls I would put then in the S&W 642. Almost impossible to screw up.
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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:56 pm

Can't beat a Ruger Lc9!
Great pistol and my wife loves it also! As soon as I get my SR40, that will be her Carry pistol.
Zach
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riff raff

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PostSubject: Re: Personal defense handgun suggestions for women?   Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:12 am

I own a Ruger SP101 357, but it's a bit bulky. The LCR seems like a viable option if you want a revolver in a smaller frame.

I opted for a LCP Custom for travel. It has a bit of sting to shoot.

http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2015/10/gun-review-rugers-new-lcp-custom/#ruger-lcp-custom-1-2

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