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 Sasieni Experts Needed to Answer Question

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CPT/VSG



Age : 65
Location : Westerville, Ohio
Registration date : 2008-05-26

PostSubject: Sasieni Experts Needed to Answer Question   Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:27 pm

There's a good looking Sasieni Ruff Root on Ebay that I'm interested in. It appears to be the tan finish. The highly reputable seller lists it as family era but Hacker's "Rare Smoke" says the tan finish was never made during the family era. On the other hand, the seller points out that it has the "Four Dot" stamp indicative of the family era.

I corresponded with the seller who also states that the source of the pipe argues for it having been purchased in the 60s--obviously family era.

As I have great respect for the Ebay seller, I'm really questioning Hacker's information. Does anyone have an opinion about whether the tan Ruff Root finish was made during the family era?


Last edited by CPT/VSG on Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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LL

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Location : KCMO
Registration date : 2007-12-29

PostSubject: Re: Sasieni Experts Needed to Answer Question   Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:39 pm

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CPT/VSG



Age : 65
Location : Westerville, Ohio
Registration date : 2008-05-26

PostSubject: Re: Sasieni Experts Needed to Answer Question   Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:53 pm

Thanks for the link. I had read the article previously but after reading it more closely I've come to a different conclusion (see below).


Last edited by CPT/VSG on Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ftrplt

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Age : 71
Location : Split between Raleigh, NC and OKC, OK
Registration date : 2007-12-15

PostSubject: Re: Sasieni Experts Needed to Answer Question   Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:55 pm

LL's reference is excellent information! If you are referring to Coopersark's 1960's "Hurlingham:" that is a family era pipe. The "Hurlingham" is a dead giveaway. While many bow at Hacker's feet, I've found his scholarship to be lacking at times! JMO....FTRPLT
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glpease
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Age : 59
Location : Here, now. Somewhere else, later...
Registration date : 2007-12-11

PostSubject: Re: Sasieni Experts Needed to Answer Question   Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:23 pm

CPT/VSG wrote:
There's a good looking Sasieni Ruff Root on Ebay that I'm interested in. It appears to be the tan finish. The highly reputable seller lists it as family era but Hacker's "Rare Smoke" says the tan finish was never made during the family era. On the other hand, it has the "Four Dot" stamp indicative of the family era.

I have owned more than on family era Ruff Root with a tan finish, so I'm quite sure they do, in fact, exist. Rick has been known to make mistakes - he's human. Just a little more proof that just 'cause something is in print, doesn't make it so! Wink

I'd trust the seller in this case.

Bon chance!

-glp
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Justpipes
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Age : 58
Location : Randolph County, NC If you don't know, you wouldn't understand.
Registration date : 2007-12-17

PostSubject: Re: Sasieni Experts Needed to Answer Question   Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:21 pm

That is a very nice looking pipe by the way!
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CPT/VSG



Age : 65
Location : Westerville, Ohio
Registration date : 2008-05-26

PostSubject: Re: Sasieni Experts Needed to Answer Question   Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:27 pm

In an effort to answer my own question, I compared the dating clues in both Hacker's book and Smith's article.

The pipe in question has a city name stamped on it, which Smith says is indicative of a family era pipe (as noted above) since the city names were eliminated in 1979 after the sale of the company. Hacker's book is silent on when the city names were no longer stamped on the shank. One point for the pipe being family era.

The pipe also has the post-war script "Sasieni" not the post-sale block lettering. Smith says the logo changed after 1979. Hacker is silent on this point. Two points for family era.

The pipe is stamped "Four Dot." Smith says "Four Dot" changed to "4 Dot" in 1986, after the second sale of the company. Hacker is silent on this point. This doesn't help date the pipe as family era if Smith is right.

The pipe has "Sasieni" and "Four Dot" on separate lines. Smith says this was discontinued and changed to "Sasieni Four Dot" in 1986. Hacker is silent on this point. This doesn't help date it as family era.

Hacker says the tan finish Ruff Root wasn't made by the family. I assume his authority is the interview he had with Alfred Sasieni in 1987. Smith is silent on this point.

In all, it looks like a post-war, family era pipe according to Smith, assuming Hacker's information is incorrect. I'm still trying to hunt up old cateloges which should address the finish issue.

One point where I find the two sources in agreement but that adds confusion to dating in general is the combination of the "Sasieni" logo (old "fish" style vs. more upright script) and patent numbers. Both say that the "Sasieni" changed after Alfred took over in 1946 but both also say that patent numbers stopped with WWII. I have a pipe with both the newer script "Sasieni" and a patent number. It also has the smaller pre-war dots. This was marketed as a 1930s pipe. According to Hacker and Smith, it wouldn't have been 1930s because of the script but it is unclear when it was made because both sources would seem to indicate this combination would not be found. Smith may have relied on Hacker for this information in his article, which could be the problem. The answer turns on when the patent numbers actually were discontinued and when the "Sasieni" script changed. My guess is that the pipe's 1946 vintage, but that's a guess.
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glpease
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Age : 59
Location : Here, now. Somewhere else, later...
Registration date : 2007-12-11

PostSubject: Re: Sasieni Experts Needed to Answer Question   Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:12 pm

Patent numbers continued to appear on "plum" coloured pipes even after the change of script, and after the patent numbers were discontinued on the other finishes.

I've also seen things to indicate that, perhaps, the older "fish" script and the newer upright cursive one may have been used concurrently for a time.

I've also seen quite a few of examples of small dots with upright, newer script, and, in fact, have had some in my own collection.

During transitional periods, there's always some murky water. Steve put a great deal of research into his piece. Though it may not be 100% accurate, and he'd be the first to admit that, it's almost certainly more reliable than Rick's minimal discussion in his books. One is the result of a collector's passion for a marque, coupled with the examination of hundreds, if not thousands of examples and discussions with many other collectors. The other simply a journalist's attempt to provide some information on one of a great many classic brands. I know which one I think is likely to be closer to being authoritative. Wink
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CPT/VSG



Age : 65
Location : Westerville, Ohio
Registration date : 2008-05-26

PostSubject: Re: Sasieni Experts Needed to Answer Question   Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:26 am

Yes, I'm aware that both Hacker and Smith say that patent numbers continued to be stamped on plum finished pipes until 1970. Mine is a a walnut finish so it's late 1940s or older. Thanks for the input (I think I'll fire up a bowl of Kensington!).
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CPT/VSG



Age : 65
Location : Westerville, Ohio
Registration date : 2008-05-26

PostSubject: Re: Sasieni Experts Needed to Answer Question   Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:30 am

Actually, with a little more digging, I found the answer. The 1960s catalogue and the 1970 and 1976 price lists show a Ruff Root "Natural" finish. The 1986 catalogue lists a Ruff Root "Tan" finish. The 1960s catalogue color photo of the "Natural" finish looks the same as the "Tan." It would appear that the family era pipes had a natural Ruff Root finish and the name of he finish was simply changed after the company was sold. The pipe in question would appear to be family era.
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riff raff

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Location : Western Maryland
Registration date : 2011-05-24

PostSubject: Re: Sasieni Experts Needed to Answer Question   Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:02 pm

I'm trying to determine when Sasieni started their "Rustic" finish. It is listed in 1930's catalogs, but I'm curious as to when it may have started. I've stuck out on Google on this.
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Sasquatch

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PostSubject: Re: Sasieni Experts Needed to Answer Question   Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:36 pm

I've got a pre-war Ruff Root Oom Paul, so 30s for sure, but earlier? Yeah I don't know, or if I did know, I've forgotten.
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riff raff

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Location : Western Maryland
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PostSubject: Re: Sasieni Experts Needed to Answer Question   Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:56 pm

Sasquatch wrote:
I've got a pre-war Ruff Root Oom Paul, so 30s for sure, but earlier?  Yeah I don't know, or if I did know, I've forgotten.  
Yep, not much history is available on the early years of Sasieni.
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SpeedyPete



Age : 73
Location : Cape Town
Registration date : 2011-01-28

PostSubject: Re: Sasieni Experts Needed to Answer Question   Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:49 am

While  you were discussing the matter, I bought the pipe Twisted Evil   Can't go wrong with a Sasieni!
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riff raff

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PostSubject: Re: Sasieni Experts Needed to Answer Question   Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:17 am

SpeedyPete wrote:
While  you were discussing the matter, I bought the pipe Twisted Evil   Can't go wrong with a Sasieni!
I'll look forward to seeing that one!
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SpeedyPete



Age : 73
Location : Cape Town
Registration date : 2011-01-28

PostSubject: Re: Sasieni Experts Needed to Answer Question   Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:19 am

riff raff wrote:
SpeedyPete wrote:
While  you were discussing the matter, I bought the pipe Twisted Evil   Can't go wrong with a Sasieni!
I'll look forward to seeing that one!

Only a joke, would never do that to a brother of mine Very Happy Must say, I was soooooo tempted, beautiful pipe
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riff raff

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PostSubject: Re: Sasieni Experts Needed to Answer Question   Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:13 pm

SpeedyPete wrote:
riff raff wrote:
SpeedyPete wrote:
While  you were discussing the matter, I bought the pipe Twisted Evil   Can't go wrong with a Sasieni!
I'll look forward to seeing that one!

Only a joke, would never do that to a brother of mine  Very Happy  Must say, I was soooooo tempted, beautiful pipe

Good one! But, have at it, I'm tapped out on my Holy Grail shape list. Unless.....
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