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 Any Charatan experts?

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Frost

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Age : 40
Location : Somewhere near Philly, PA
Registration date : 2009-12-31

PostSubject: Any Charatan experts?   Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:05 pm

Just saw what I think may be a pre Lane or perhaps Lane era Charatan on ebay and managed to get a smallish bid in before time ran out. Lo and behold I won it. Anyone able to confirm the age of it by the info from the listing?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130367083950&autorefresh=true

It is a pot shape with a saddle stem. No DC bit.

Nomenclature:

CHARATAN'S MAKE
LONDON ,ENGLAND
SPECIAL"
148 There is an "X" under the number
CP on stem
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PegLegEd

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Age : 64
Location : Dublin, Ga
Registration date : 2010-01-31

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:30 pm

You must be living right. Lucky Man!!!!
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Frost

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Age : 40
Location : Somewhere near Philly, PA
Registration date : 2009-12-31

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:35 pm

Well until I can say with reasonable certainty what era it is from, it may only be a so-so buy. From what I have gathered, if it is pre-lane it is a good deal, lane era would make it an ok deal, post lane makes it only a half decent deal.

Charatan dating seems to be so foggy it is hard to get a solid read based only on the available internet info I am able to find. Plus, since I have a bad habit of not writing down anything that is important, I tend to get my dating clues confused between the various brands and makers! Lol.
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PegLegEd

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Age : 64
Location : Dublin, Ga
Registration date : 2010-01-31

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:43 pm

I got 25 years worth of brain damage on you guy. What you wreckon all this tobac an pipe research is doing to me? I'm in to big of a hurry to learn it all right now to be able remember where i saw this or that and just what did it say.

You have to agree though yours looks like a better score than mine.
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Frost

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Age : 40
Location : Somewhere near Philly, PA
Registration date : 2009-12-31

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:46 pm

Looks like the "X" dates the Charatan to somewhere in the 60's, which would make it Lane era I believe. Either it doesn't have the lane "L" or the seller missed it I assume. That is my best guess based on the info I am able to find.

Edit in: Not necesarilly peg. I paid $90 for the 1920's BBB I got from smokingpipes and it had a decent amount of wear on it. Depending on age your BBB could be an excellent score, especially with the silver (bling, you know?). Either way, the price you got it for was more than a good deal in my opinion.
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PegLegEd

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Age : 64
Location : Dublin, Ga
Registration date : 2010-01-31

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:01 am

Word!
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phillpsych

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Age : 62
Location : Northern Illinois
Registration date : 2010-01-24

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:04 am

Frost;
I'm assuming you have read "Memories of Charatan Pipes and Notes on their Dating" by Ivy Ryan? If not, I can send you a link, but you can
Google for this article, if you haven't read it.
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Frost

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Age : 40
Location : Somewhere near Philly, PA
Registration date : 2009-12-31

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:07 am

Yeah I have read it, but thanks for the tip anyway. I have heard from other sources that there is some misinformation in that article, and of course I do not know what that misinformation might be, so there is still a fair amount of uncertainty for me.

Replied to your PM btw.
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thedeep



Age : 71
Location : Indiana
Registration date : 2008-09-10

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:05 pm

A few years back I had a decent collection of Charatans. Gone now. But, from memory, the "X" denotes it is not a double-comfort bit, so it is post-1958 (the official start of the dc bit, though some were made before that time). Not having Lane's "L" probably means it was a pipe made for other than the American market. The "L" only went on American pipes.
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Frost

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Age : 40
Location : Somewhere near Philly, PA
Registration date : 2009-12-31

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:13 pm

Thanks sir. That jives with the info I have so far, so methinks you are right and this is lane or later. The only thing I am not sure of really at this point is if the use of the X and shape numbers changed from lane to dunhill. I was able to find the shape number on the 1964 & 65 charatan flyer on pipepages.com, but not on the late 60s european flyer.
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hagley

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Location : Suwanee, GA
Registration date : 2007-12-23

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:11 pm

Waste of time. Tad Gage has forgotten more about Charatans than that woman ever knew.

Mike

phillpsych wrote:
Frost;
I'm assuming you have read "Memories of Charatan Pipes and Notes on their Dating" by Ivy Ryan? If not, I can send you a link, but you can
Google for this article, if you haven't read it.
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hagley

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Location : Suwanee, GA
Registration date : 2007-12-23

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:12 pm

The X merely indicates that the pipe was not fitted with a DC mouthpiece.

Mike

Frost wrote:
Thanks sir. That jives with the info I have so far, so methinks you are right and this is lane or later. The only thing I am not sure of really at this point is if the use of the X and shape numbers changed from lane to dunhill. I was able to find the shape number on the 1964 & 65 charatan flyer on pipepages.com, but not on the late 60s european flyer.
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Frost

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Age : 40
Location : Somewhere near Philly, PA
Registration date : 2009-12-31

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:18 pm

Right, I got that about the X. I just wasn't sure if that was still used post-lane. I haven't been able to find Tad's article online yet, only references to it.
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thedeep



Age : 71
Location : Indiana
Registration date : 2008-09-10

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:28 pm

Gee, I missed that part...I've owned a couple of 148's. That's an old standard shape for Charatan. Heck, it might be one I had...
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Frost

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Age : 40
Location : Somewhere near Philly, PA
Registration date : 2009-12-31

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:11 pm

Were yours decent smokers at least? I kinda have a fondness for the shape. Pot types sort of seem like the ugly stepchild, with billiards, dublins and bulldogs being the favored siblings.
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ftrplt

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Age : 72
Location : Split between Raleigh, NC and OKC, OK
Registration date : 2007-12-15

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:49 pm

Frost....I absolutely love a good pot-shaped pipe. Hard to find shape though. FTRPLT
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PegLegEd

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Age : 64
Location : Dublin, Ga
Registration date : 2010-01-31

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:08 am

I keep looking at the picture of that pipe, it begins to speak of how much it loves to please the the holder, and just how much pleasure it can give.
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PegLegEd

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Age : 64
Location : Dublin, Ga
Registration date : 2010-01-31

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:11 am

Frost wrote:
Well until I can say with reasonable certainty what era it is from, it may only be a so-so buy. From what I have gathered, if it is pre-lane it is a good deal, lane era would make it an ok deal, post lane makes it only a half decent deal.

Charatan dating seems to be so foggy it is hard to get a solid read based only on the available internet info I am able to find. Plus, since I have a bad habit of not writing down anything that is important, I tend to get my dating clues confused between the various brands and makers! Lol.

See ifthis site will help any.
http://www.finepipes.com/pipes/english/gbd

It also has Charatons. http://www.finepipes.com/
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thedeep



Age : 71
Location : Indiana
Registration date : 2008-09-10

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:09 am

Funny thing about pots. They, generally, are not pretty, but they sure do smoke! My Charatans were great smokers. The only straight pipe I currently own is an early Peterson pot...a great smoke. I had a couple of Barling pots...great smokes. That 148 will treat you right.
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Zeno Marx

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Registration date : 2010-06-26

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:25 pm

It's interesting that Charatan Freehands seem to try to stay close to traditional shapes, but at the same time, they can be some of the strangest, even downright goofy, looking things ever carved. I'd like to know more of the story behind them. For instance, the double-rimmed Dublins and Billiards. Where the carvers told to stay close to the standard shapes and given only limited leeway? Or maybe a really traditional person carving and thinking these slight alterations were as "out there" as they could handle? The result being some really oddball shapes, though they were attempting the very opposite?
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Rusty

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Registration date : 2010-06-04

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:54 pm

Zeno Marx wrote:
It's interesting that Charatan Freehands seem to try to stay close to traditional shapes, but at the same time, they can be some of the strangest, even downright goofy, looking things ever carved. I'd like to know more of the story behind them. For instance, the double-rimmed Dublins and Billiards. Where the carvers told to stay close to the standard shapes and given only limited leeway? Or maybe a really traditional person carving and thinking these slight alterations were as "out there" as they could handle? The result being some really oddball shapes, though they were attempting the very opposite?

I like the old Charatans and have a bunch. I doubt that Lane constrained the carvers. There was almost certainly a hierarchy in the shop that ran from apprentice to master pipe maker. The folks carving those big freehands were master pipe makers. They enjoyed creative freedom which is why some do look a little odd. But things like the cup & saucer shape variations were wonderful shapes. The last round included people like Barry Jones who was recruited to found Upshall. But it also included Colin Fromm who is now carving for Dunhill. It's not a coincidence that many new Dunhill Collectors look remarkably like Charatan freehands.

For those of you who used to enjoy the old Dunhill-Charatan rivalry you should know that Charatan became a trojan horse that subverted Dunhill from the inside out. Dunhill today is actually a mix of both companies. But I know this sort of statement inflames the Dunhill fans and that's fine!

When Lane was acquired in 1976 Charatan became part of Dunhill. All of this produced some remarkable changes in Dunhill. This was infiltration and the changes were profound. The late John Loring said it best in his book on Dunhill pipes:

"A major corporate acquisition of a competing product lines typically has the effect of forcing a rethinking and rationalization of both the acquirer and the acquired. This certainly appears to be the case with the Lane acquisition and seems to reflect corporate and financial minds not particularly steeped in or respectful of the past.
For instance
+ Dunhill's shape numbering system was completely restructured for the first time in its history;
+ attaining straight grained or partially straight grained pipes appears to become an important production objective;
+ non-precious metal, plated trim was introduced for pipes once considered too worthy for even sterling silver;
+ in a related front, pre-packaged pipe tobacco production was farmed out to Murray Sons & Co; and,
+ perhaps most questionably, there was a 'close out' of Dunhill stamped Bruyere stained pipes of dubious quality."

The Dunhill in the following post is an iconic Charatan shape. It's not a Dunhill shape.
http://www.brothersofbriar.com/t13496-new-dunhill-ferndown

Concerning the Charatan stem details that are mentioned in the early thread posts I wrote a little about Charatan and stem types in the following thread:
http://www.brothersofbriar.com/t9028-charatan-pipe-dating#103590
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ebuyer1932

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Location : Central New Jersey
Registration date : 2011-08-18

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:47 pm

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have been recently consigned to sell a dozen of high grade Charatans. The collection consists of 8 Coronations, 3 Achievements (2 unsmoked) and one Crown achievement. The smoked ones need to be cleaned, which I hope to accomplish over the weekend. In the interim, I can email the pictures of the 2 unsmoked Achievements to those who were interested. Let me know
keywisdom at aol dot com
Thanks and happy puffs.

Hank
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monbla256

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Age : 72
Location : DFW Metroplex, Texas
Registration date : 2012-01-15

PostSubject: ebuyer1932 wrote:   Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:16 pm

ebuyer1932 wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have been recently consigned to sell a dozen of high grade Charatans. The collection consists of 8 Coronations, 3 Achievements (2 unsmoked) and one Crown achievement. The smoked ones need to be cleaned, which I hope to accomplish over the weekend. In the interim, I can email the pictures of the 2 unsmoked Achievements to those who were interested. Let me know
keywisdom at aol dot com
Thanks and happy puffs.

Hank

You might get more takers on your offer posting this in The Trading Post here.
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ebuyer1932

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Location : Central New Jersey
Registration date : 2011-08-18

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:30 pm

monbla256 wrote:
ebuyer1932 wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have been recently consigned to sell a dozen of high grade Charatans. The collection consists of 8 Coronations, 3 Achievements (2 unsmoked) and one Crown achievement. The smoked ones need to be cleaned, which I hope to accomplish over the weekend. In the interim, I can email the pictures of the 2 unsmoked Achievements to those who were interested. Let me know
keywisdom at aol dot com
Thanks and happy puffs.

Hank

You might get more takers on your offer posting this in The Trading Post here.

Thank you. I am afraid, I don't have enough postings in order to be qualified to post there.
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Zeno Marx

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Registration date : 2010-06-26

PostSubject: Re: Any Charatan experts?   Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:15 pm

Did Charatan coat their bowls? I can't remember.
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